Live data from Hacker News

What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

economist.com

51–60 of 112 posts

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#51
post #9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How's the farming community doing in Hong Kong, Macao, and Singapore?

Imposing tariffs on imports is classic protectionism - are you actually arguing that that is a net benefit? Of course the protected industries benefit from protectionism, the argument against protectionism is that everyone else loses. There is no reason that a transaction with a counterparty in Shanghai should incur any more taxes than an equivalent transaction with a counterparty in Manchester.

> Imposing tariffs on imports is classic protectionism

Protectionism is the wrong word when you are talking about food supplies. Tariffs are applied selectively to food imports in most countries, to protect farming for food security. Food matters more to people than watered down Randian ideology, once there is a shortage.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may be voting no to the Brexit deal purely because they don't agree with it. But you are painting this as a binary situation of 'The Deal' vs No deal. There is a third option, withdrawing notice to leave. Parliament can choose to remain without any kind of referendum. In fact there was a case heard by the ECJ today to clarify this very fact. The UK's option to remain was undisputed, and the remaining legal argum…

Fancy that. Group of people who don't want a decision to go through got together and decided that there won't be any punishment if the decision doesn't go through.

> punishment

What on earth are you talking about?

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fancy that. Group of people who don't want a decision to go through got together and decided that there won't be any punishment if the decision doesn't go through.

> punishment What on earth are you talking about?

Presumably the only way the ECJ can enforce any of its rulings is by some sort of punishment if you don't agree with what they suggest?

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#56
That site has the cookie policy from hell. Go to the site, ctrl-a, ctrl-c, ctrl-v into a pad and close the browser tab. Then you will have the information without having to deal with their corporate madness.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#57
post #50
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imposing tariffs on imports is classic protectionism - are you actually arguing that that is a net benefit? Of course the protected industries benefit from protectionism, the argument against protectionism is that everyone else loses. There is no reason that a transaction with a counterparty in Shanghai should incur any more taxes than an equivalent transaction with a counterparty in Manchester.

This would have made the oddest pro-Brexit argument ever. "Sure it will personally suck for you the British farmer, but think about the benefit to the avocado farmers in Chile. Brexit for Chile!"

It's not just the avocado farmers in Chile, it's also the avocado purchasers in the UK.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#58
I think at this point we can safely say that the Brexit was a protest vote against immigration that got out of hand (in that it got >50% of the vote) and the UK is now left to pick up the pieces.

Look into this for even a few minutes and you'll come to a conclusion that leaving the EU is a ridiculous idea.

- The Good Friday agreement gives the UK the obligation to maintain an open border with the Republic of Ireland

- An open border with Ireland brings the UK into the EU customs union

- The only compromise solution here is to include Northern Ireland in the EU customs union but not the rest of the UK. In essence this puts a border between the UK and Northern Ireland.

- The DUP, who are now an essential part of the Conservative majority in Westminster will fight tooth and nail any separation from the UK as they see this as leading to an inevitable (and undesired, by the Protestants at least) reunification with Ireland.

- The UK wants to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to freedom of movement in that they want UK citizens to have freedom of movement but not have to allow EU citizens freedom of the movement in the UK. The EU has made it pretty clear that they don't want to set this precedent and that any freedom of movement needs to be reciprocal.

- The UK wants a deal like Norway or Switzerland. The EU, who wants to not encourage further separation, will fight against this. The UK will get a deal but it won't be as good.

- Being a non-voting member of the EU in the Norway/Switzerland model will give the UK all of the negatives (primarily the outflow of money to fund the EU) with none of the benefits (they lose voting rights). This is really a worst of both worlds type scenario.

Honestly I see a hard exit as probably being the best outcome (short of calling this whole thing off, which I don't think will happen).

Sadly, this whole affair has kind of shown just how useless the UK media is as pretty much everything written about this is blatantly opinionated on whatever the editorial position of the paper is. It doesn't even matter if the article that someone like the Guardian or the Economist produces is good in isolation. You just know that the Guardian isn't going to publish anything positive or even neutral on Brexit. As a result you really can't trust anything they say. They aren't alone in this.

There are some positive outcomes that would come out of a hard Brexit:

- Not handing over 50B+ euros to the EU. It's true that when the UK pays into the EU budget they get some of that money back but the net position is a deficit.

- The UK regaining sovereignty over territorial waters for fishing purposes. These waters have been heavily overfished and the tragedy of the commons has definitely applied here. Ironically when the EC was originally formed the UK refused to join. Had they done so they would've maintained sovereignty over territorial waters. When they later joined they didn't.

- The UK is no longer under EU jurisdiction and could go the route of Switzerland and become a financial haven.

- The UK would no longer be on the hook for the bailouts for precarious economies (Greece, Portugal, Italy). It's true that the UK isn't in the eurozone so there's some separation already but this is still more insulation.

Sadly I think efforts like Scotland remaining in or rejoining the EU are doomed as they would present the same border issues that plague Northern Ireland.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#59
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By allowing free trade you allow companies to operate wherever is most efficient. This reduces costs, and therefore reduces prices (through competition). Everybody is a winner (apart from the previously-protected businesses who now have to compete on a level playing field).

> wherever is most efficient This is only true when all actors play by the same rules. Without this requirement the most efficient places to operate are where there are the fewest labor and environmental protections. I would 100% be in favor of eliminating tariffs to countries that meet the same standards but its silly to say that we're better off exploiting not-quite-slave labor.

>I would 100% be in favor of eliminating tariffs to countries that meet the same standards

That’s the current situation with the EU. Turns out the UK is not happy with that.

Re: What to expect from a no-deal Brexit

#60
post #49
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real problem is not majoritarianism, or democracy. The problem is that the referendum should have been framed as "Start exit negotiations." If it's not framed that way, it amounts to buying the outcome of a risky multi-year process with a lot of downside risk and tens of billions in costs sight unseen. It is not antidemocratic to have a referendum on "Were the negotiations a success?" Nor does it make sense that…

> The UK can withdraw the notification they will exit and remain and continue to negotiate. Some EU leaders have eliminated that as an option.

Actually this was being discussed in the ECJ today. The UK most certainly can withdraw article 50 and remain

There is some dispute over whether they can do it unilaterally, but we will find out when the ruling from todays case comes out.

Post reply on HN