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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#231

Post by chrisco255 »

lostgame wrote: post #183
grecy wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pretty bold It's interesting you would label this as such. In what is ostensibly the best country in the world, and a massive proponent of free speech and human rights, you think it's bold to write a letter on the internet to your extraordinarily famous employer? If it's considered bold in the USA involving Google, I shudder to think about anyone else doing this anywhere else. In the year 2018 I would hope it's ver…

>> a massive proponent of free speech and human rights Yeah, 'human rights', right, so that's why they're so[1] focused[2] on separating families[3], and I guess 'free speech' is what allows the POTUS to be a racist[4], fear-mongering, corrupt[5] liar[6]? Or is 'free speech' the thing that allows denial[7] of climate change[8] even while California burns to the ground? And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along…

[1][2][3] Besides being a revised policy that no longer applies (and yes, policies take time to unwind)...there is no universal human right to emigrate to any country whatsoever. I know a lot of people think so...

but also this pales in comparison to the abuses of existing Chinese nationals by China, taking Muslim property [1], placing citizens in internment camps and abusing them, placing them under "deeply invasive forms of surveillance and psychological stress as they are forced to abandon their native language, religious beliefs and cultural practices" [2], imposing a nationwide social credit system that can deny citizens of China basic access to education, air travel, etc on a whim [3]...

Whatever your thoughts on Trump (besides being off-topic...he's not racist, by the way [4])...he's kept in check by a robust court system, a constitutional republic and the congress itself from imposing the systems listed above on U.S. citizens.

And yes, free speech is the right to say offensive things. There's no reason whatsoever to protect "inoffensive" speech. Yes, free speech (and liberty in general) allows you to be skeptical of the assessment on global climate change. It allows you to question what role if any, our government should have in attempting to control the climate. Sorry you hate liberty, maybe you would prefer if a social credit system imposed punishment on those not pre-disposed to your particular beliefs? If so, then China is looking like a good move for you.

[1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uighur-m... [2] http://www.tribtown.com/2018/11/26/us-united-states-china-in... [3] https://www.businessinsider.com/china-social-credit-system-p... [4] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/23/trump-pushes-senate-to-pass-...

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#232

Post by lostgame »

kevmo wrote: post #166

I morally judge (not condemn) people who work at Google. If you can get a job at Google, you can get a job almost anywhere. There is tons of great work out there for you. People who work at Google are choosing to aid in the suppression of human freedom.

>> People who work at Google are choosing to aid in the suppression of human freedom.

The fact that there's a large number of employees who signed this document provides great evidence to contradict this claim.

It's kind of a blanket statement - I'm sure a bunch of the folks here on HN work at Google and are trying to do exactly the opposite.

Heck, some of the people who signed off on this document could be HN'ers!

You can sometimes change a corrupt system from the inside. It takes a lot of work and dedication and it certainly doesn't always work out - but it's a choice some people make. It certainly isn't mine! :)

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#233

Post by jfoster »

robbrown451 wrote: post #169
pojzon wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are mostly "Software Engineers" and not a lot of them. Google can kick them out and replace within a month. Unfortunetly I dont think executives will give a slightest heck about this article..

I don't think you understand Google culture. Kicking them out would have far greater repercussions. It might also expose them to lawsuits. It also will likely affect what they'll have to pay for top talent: the idea that Google puts core values above profits (or at least that they prioritize them at all) is a major perk.

Google has little reason to kick them out. They can ignore them instead. Some will leave due to this. Others will stay. The effect of the action overall would be diluted.

Worst thing that can happen here from Google's perspective is for this to get a lot of media attention & a lot of signatures.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#234

Post by lostgame »

chrisco255 wrote: post #231
lostgame wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> a massive proponent of free speech and human rights Yeah, 'human rights', right, so that's why they're so[1] focused[2] on separating families[3], and I guess 'free speech' is what allows the POTUS to be a racist[4], fear-mongering, corrupt[5] liar[6]? Or is 'free speech' the thing that allows denial[7] of climate change[8] even while California burns to the ground? And I guess with 'human rights' that goes along…

[1][2][3] Besides being a revised policy that no longer applies (and yes, policies take time to unwind)...there is no universal human right to emigrate to any country whatsoever. I know a lot of people think so... but also this pales in comparison to the abuses of existing Chinese nationals by China, taking Muslim property [1], placing citizens in internment camps and abusing them, placing them under "deeply invasive…

I'm sorry, but if 'liberty' includes the ability to reserve the right to deny science to continue destroying the entire planet, I'm not sure I can support it.

Sounds like liberty for humans, and not for the planet, which we have to live on.

What's the point in free speech if we destroy the place we live in? Who will be left to speak?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#235

Post by maemilius »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #116
atomical wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between choice A and choice B? It seems there is no difference. Let's move onto the next logical argument. If the argument is that someone else will do it if we don't then do morals and values ever come into play? This is one reason why export controls on technology are important. The corporations don't mind helping oppressive governments lock up dissidents.

choice A is for google not to build a Chinese engine and for Chinese to use censored versions of locally built search engines. Choice B is for them to have a choice of local search engines and a google search engine ( all censored ). Seems to me from moral point of view, Chinese are better off under B and so I don't see why it's wrong for google to go with B

If there was some way to ensure that this never got bigger than China, I doubt there would be as much opposition. The problem arises when you ask the question "Who, next?"

Who, next, wants all of Google's information about people in their country turned over to them?

As much as we in the US talk about out government compelling companies to turn over data, those companies _do_ have a say in what they will or can turn over and our government has some burden of proof that they need it. In China, based on my understanding, they have no choice, no say.

If the question was just "is this better for the Chinese?", I think I would agree with you. This _is_ better for the Chinese. The problem is that this raises the question of "where does this lead?" I don't think it leads anywhere good and, clearly, I'm not alone in that assessment.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#236

Post by gfo »

lostgame wrote: post #232
kevmo wrote: post #166

I morally judge (not condemn) people who work at Google. If you can get a job at Google, you can get a job almost anywhere. There is tons of great work out there for you. People who work at Google are choosing to aid in the suppression of human freedom.

>> People who work at Google are choosing to aid in the suppression of human freedom. The fact that there's a large number of employees who signed this document provides great evidence to contradict this claim. It's kind of a blanket statement - I'm sure a bunch of the folks here on HN work at Google and are trying to do exactly the opposite. Heck, some of the people who signed off on this document could be HN'ers! Y…

Agreed with all your points here. Clearly from this letter and the opposition other projects have received at Google there are those inside the company actively working to influence change.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#237

Post by gfo »

garmaine wrote: post #217
schalab wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why dont western companies band together and threaten a boycott until some kind of IP laws are enforced? They just keep getting picked off one by one.

Have you used the internet in China? There is no meaningful presence of foreign companies. They’re already kicked out.

Not disagreeing with you, but with a lot of our manufacturing happening in China there is definitely a different kind of presence.

But still, not sure if they would give up the low cost of manufacturing for this. Frankly, the regime makes that possible.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#238

Post by politician »

educationdata wrote: post #10

There are not many Chinese names in the signed letter, and I can fully understand. If you are a Chinese H1B or green card holder, and you signed this letter, it is almost certain the Chinese government will contact your family in China.

How many Chinese social credit points would the family members of the signer lose if a Googler were to sign this letter?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#239

Post by gfo »

tivert wrote: post #86
patrickaljord wrote: post #9

If I was in China and had to choose between having a choice between censored baidu and censored google vs just censored baidu, I'd rather have both baidu and google. It's easy for us here in the western world as we have access to both and more uncensored sources to take the moral high ground and subject the Chinese to a "let them eat cake" attitude. Not sure if this will benefit people over there though to ban google…

> Not sure if this will benefit people over there though to ban google completely. It won't really help them, and focusing on the Chinese market misses the most insidious problem: a censored Google search engine in the PRC gives the Chinese Communist Party leverage over Google outside of the PRC. Just look at what happened with the airlines: the PRC forced them to change their foreign websites to reflect a PRC politi…

You assume they don't already have leverage in Google. I would be more surprised if the Chinese haven't already found ways to leverage Google for external influence (akin to Russia, Iran, etc. via Facebook).

But I agree with the core point - the 'legal' influence would bother me just as much.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#240

Post by projectramo »

nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

Not to be cynical, but did another company take over that work for them? Did the police get their MRAPs?
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