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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#81
post #14

Without stating an opinion on the topic itself, what does the community think about employees agitating against a company practice like this rather than just leaving and doing something else. Obviously they feel strongly about it and want to make sure it doesn’t happen at all, while the company feels they have a huge untapped revenue source.

Google is a publicly traded company, so they unfortunately answer to shareholders and customers not to employees unless they are one or both of those things.

In this case investors are who can make any worthwhile difference and they should be appealing to investors. However, I imagine a significant chunk of investors don't even know/realize they are due to whole/broad market funds.

Google sees 17% of the world's population as potential customers via China so who is going to have their attention more 'thousands' of employees or 1.4 billion potential customers? The only way they're going to get Google's attention is to get shareholders concerned. There will always be employees willing to be on board with this, fact of the matter is most people just don't care as long as they are getting paid. They need to get investors against it if they want to have any hope of getting Google to not do this.

A Medium article, or a petition, or a 'hey thousands of us think you shouldn't do this', is unlikely to do a damn thing. If they want to make a stand they should have Amnesty International create a video campaign that describes, FROM PUBLIC SOURCES (to avoid any potential blowback from sharing company secrets/violating NDAs), what Dragonfly is and have non-Google employees that are industry experts comment on why they think it is a bad idea. Then the Google employees should share this on all of their social media, share it directly to their friends. You want to get outsiders championing the cause and generating attention and you want to minimize any single employees risk as much as possible by using non-employees to be the public face.

If I were doing it I'd do a video as Amnesty International, try and get the Internet Freedom Foundation on board, reach out to college human rights groups and try and grass roots the shit out of it to get as much media attention as possible which would increase chances of reaching the eyes of investors.

Doing it as a group of employees though, ehhhh, that's almost certainly going to do nothing and if anything it'll have a negative impact on employees and potentially result in future policies designed to thwart future attempts like this.

It sucks because it's too big of a market to effectively deter Google from wanting to bend to the will of the Chinese government.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the more reason to take a stand right now.

Why single out China though? If Google had to stop doing business in any country that forces it to censor stuff, they would not be allowed anywhere, I think even the US forces them to filter out illegal gambling. Where does it stop?

You're right, maybe it shouldn't stop at China.

Maybe google should commit to a policy of "protected free speech" on a wide range of political topics that it will never censor in any country (roughly in line with the first amendment).

Great idea.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#84

There are not many Chinese names in the signed letter, and I can fully understand. If you are a Chinese H1B or green card holder, and you signed this letter, it is almost certain the Chinese government will contact your family in China.

Or it's because they would rather access to a censored Google without using a VPN when they visit China. If they really think that Dragonfly is worse than Baidu or Bing, they don't have to use it. This is a classic case of privileged westerners deciding that they know better than the actual residents – a modern day white man's burden.

Edit: Flagged for an unpopular view. Hacker news has sunk to a new low. Whatever guideline you think I violated, I guarantee that there are violations of equal magnitude on this thread that are very popular.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#85

Given how trash of a search engine Baidu is, Google would likely achieve market share dominance in China within a couple years - should they move forward with Dragonfly. Complying with demands of the Chinese gov't is the only way they can penetrate the Chinese market. Search engine advertising constitutes close to 85% of Google's revenue. And unlike Project Maven, which was ended due to internal resistance from emplo…

doing business with the second largest economy in the world isn't an expendable venture

Google could continue to operate profitably without doing business in China, so what makes your statement true?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#86

If I was in China and had to choose between having a choice between censored baidu and censored google vs just censored baidu, I'd rather have both baidu and google. It's easy for us here in the western world as we have access to both and more uncensored sources to take the moral high ground and subject the Chinese to a "let them eat cake" attitude. Not sure if this will benefit people over there though to ban google…

> Not sure if this will benefit people over there though to ban google completely.

It won't really help them, and focusing on the Chinese market misses the most insidious problem: a censored Google search engine in the PRC gives the Chinese Communist Party leverage over Google outside of the PRC. Just look at what happened with the airlines: the PRC forced them to change their foreign websites to reflect a PRC political positions by threatening their access to their market.

Think of what they could do to "uncensored" American Google with similar leverage:

* Chinese human rights websites are deranked from relevant searches down to the second or third page. This is a subtle and deniable type of censorship.

* Ditto with critical coverage of Tibet or Xinjiang.

* Taiwan is shown on Google maps and infoboxes as part of the PRC.

* Google gives Xinhua, the PRC's English-language propaganda outlet [1], prominence on Google news.

* etc.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhua_News_Agency#Bias_&_poli...

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#88

So, 36 people (at present, anyway) sign a letter. What in the flying frig is that actually supposed to accomplish? There's nothing really actionable here; you've got the nothingness of "that leadership commit to transparency, clear communication, and real accountability." Are these people going to actually do anything - quit in protest, sabotage, what? No, they are going to whine, and keep drawing their very lucrativ…

You're criticizing a snapshot of a process. I'd agree with your criticisms if we knew this was the end-game, but we don't know that it is. It is not, in general, the correct move to escalate to the maximum level in situations like this, so considered as a process this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The next move is currently Google's.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#90
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are mostly "Software Engineers" and not a lot of them. Google can kick them out and replace within a month. Unfortunetly I dont think executives will give a slightest heck about this article..

> Google can kick them out and replace within a month. Ah. A believer that software engineers are cogs and can just be “replaced” without training and learning of code bases. Hiring software engineers, bringing them up to speed, and having them contribute to production features, is expensive. Also, you’ll never truly recoup the lost knowledge that goes.

Google has literally thousands of engineers. A significant percentage of those engineers leave every year as part of normal attrition. Google is certainly capable of dealing with the fallout these folks leaving without feeling a thing. While it's true there are some "one-in-a-million" type engineers that work at Google, I don't see any of the well-known ones on this list.

All that said, I commend the folks who signed this letter. If anything, the fact that most of the folks who signed are in relatively junior positions shows how Google has lost its way when it comes to it's morals. The more senior execs feel the pressure of serving Wall Street and have more to lose, while these more junior folks, while taking a risk know they can get hired anywhere else in a heartbeat. It's the kid standing up saying the emperor has no clothes.

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