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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#141
post #5

I'm glad Google Employees are taking a stand rather than just leaving the company and having their replacements do bad things thinking it will be a one off.

Those are mostly "Software Engineers" and not a lot of them. Google can kick them out and replace within a month. Unfortunetly I dont think executives will give a slightest heck about this article..

Firing all these engineers would be insanity, as the internal uproar over that would be much worse than that over Project Dragonfly. You might even see formalized organizing begin over it (look up what happened to Lanetix).

I don't have strong views either way on Project Dragonfly but I would absolutely be greatly pissed off if everyone opposing it were fired.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#142
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t follow your logic. If the first step to entering the Chinese market requires bending to the government’s will, what makes you think Google would have any leverage in the future to be able to “make it a better place”?

You inadvertently demonstrated exactly what I was talking about. You're thinking in absolutes, and I would point to the legalization of marijuana in Colorado to demonstrate the power of subtle resistance.

Can you point to a summary of the history of marijuana legalization in Colorado?

I imagine most non-US readers, such as myself, won’t have any idea about that.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#143
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

doing business with the second largest economy in the world isn't an expendable venture Google could continue to operate profitably without doing business in China, so what makes your statement true?

I don't think this is true. The stock market demands their hockey stick. If Google doesn't go after the Chinese market, their stock value will suffer. It's all about returning as much money to investors as possible. Period. Otherwise you suffer the consequences.

This is a universal argument for doing anything that makes a profit in the short term. Usually, apologists for corporate immorality bring up fiduciary duty, as if it explains and justifies things. But the argument falls apart if you poke at it even a little, because it completely omits the other side of the argument.

Why doesn't Google start a restaurant chain, or start making PCs, or selling servers, or licensing software defined networking stacks to other companies, or monetize many of their other assets? Surely they must if they're supposed to make as much money for their investors as possible?

Why don't they sell search data on individuals to repressive regimes, so people can be hunted down, imprisoned, tortured and executed? Would make some decent coin for investors, I expect, lots of repressive governments would probably pay a pretty penny for it.

How about selling searches emanating from US government IPs to the Kremlin, selling tracking data linked to Google accounts, or otherwise monetizing espionage interests?

The problem with doing these things is that it affects the value of the Google brand, both internally to employees and externally to customers. If you can't hire the best employees or encourage customers to trust your software and services, then long or even short term decline is pretty much assured.

And how about swapping cause and effect? You're positing the tail should wag the dog - that the stock market should control what the company does. How about the stock market chooses to invest in companies that are doing things that it believes will make money? From this perspective, the company is free to do whatever, and investors are free to sell the stock if they don't agree. In truth, there's a mutual dependence here - the company can't just fraudulently give away investors' cash, but likewise, if investors knew what was best for companies, we wouldn't need CEOs or leadership of any kind - we'd just advertise choices to the investors / market and go with whatever pushes up the stock most.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#144

Given how trash of a search engine Baidu is, Google would likely achieve market share dominance in China within a couple years - should they move forward with Dragonfly. Complying with demands of the Chinese gov't is the only way they can penetrate the Chinese market. Search engine advertising constitutes close to 85% of Google's revenue. And unlike Project Maven, which was ended due to internal resistance from emplo…

Baidu currently has no real competitors so they can afford to be a bit lazy. If Google enters the Chinese search engine market then Baidu won't just surrender, they'll improve their product to compete. They certainly have the capital and resources to do so if they make it a priority.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses are not in the business of simply being profitable, they are usually in the business of increasing revenue and profits beyond the current state.

Nothing about my question suggests Google wouldn't be able to continue to grow by focusing on the 80% of the world that isn't China. China may be the lowest-hanging fruit of the search and ad market, but surely you're not suggesting Google would shy away from a challenge and only go for the easy win? That doesn't sounds like the Google we all know.

[deleted]

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#146
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why do you need two censored search engines? What would be the difference between them?

Google is technically superior to baidu in many areas, specially for a developers. It gives better answers in many subjects, not just the censored ones. Besides who are we to decide for the Chinese what is best for them? Sounds a bit condescending and paternalistic. Here here, baidu is enough for you to play with, don't bother with google.

> Besides who are we to decide for the Chinese what is best for them?

You do realize that the "people" do not have a voice in China right? It is not a democracy...

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#147

As someone who lived most of his life in a dictatorship, I really struggle to understand the logic of these employees. I was actually surprised Google stepped out of China a couple of years ago and felt like the decision was taken by a bunch of people who don't understand what it's like to live in a non-democratic country. Do they think that everybody in China cares that their internet is censored or that they're bei…

While i do understand where you are coming from, i think if google gave up it will set a precedence and many countries will demand their own censored version of google.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#148

As someone who lived most of his life in a dictatorship, I really struggle to understand the logic of these employees. I was actually surprised Google stepped out of China a couple of years ago and felt like the decision was taken by a bunch of people who don't understand what it's like to live in a non-democratic country. Do they think that everybody in China cares that their internet is censored or that they're bei…

>It's not like a person who's opposing the Chinese government online is going to be using Google without a secure connection anyway

How can you say something like that? What does "oppose" mean to you exactly? Being the leader of a 1 million-strong protest group? If so, then yeah, I would expect such people to be very careful about how they protest online.

But everyone else? Come on. Most people, even most dissidents, are not tech-savvy. There even was a recent story about NYT whistleblowers sending classified data to NYT via WhatsApp, without ever making the connection that their phone number used in WhatsApp could be linked to them.

The vast majority of people aren't infosec experts.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#149
I think it is good that these engineers are standing up for what they believe in. It will be an interesting litmus test for the leadership to see what type of company they want Google to become.

Also, I am interested how the tense China-US relationship will effect the broader tech investment strategy in East Asia. Are we going to see divestment in the next 18 months by US tech companies in China?

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