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US asks allies to avoid Huawei

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Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#51

Post by Mikeb85 »

zimablue wrote: post #42
Mikeb85 wrote: post #29

So basically strongarming everyone into using hardware that the US government has a backdoor into. Not going to lie, simply based on historical US international interventions, I'd rather be spyed on by the Chinese. They're less likely to start a war or overthrow governments.

Really? Do you think the US government would use your information in a more or less restricted way than the Chinese? Would your answer change if you were: a) a citizen of the US, b) a citizen in China, c) a citizen of a country where china has massive influence, d) a citizen of a country where the US has massive influence, e) a citizen of a strongly independent country? Your answer is so baffling to me that I checked…

Canada. Well, the US is using national security as a reason to urge people to drop Huawei. Meanwhile it's an obvious economic as well as soft power play.

In recent years we've had several trade disputes with the US, illegal immigrants pour in to our borders from the US, and US sponsored environmental activists have disrupted many of our natural resource industries.

So can't say I'm too keen on the US attempting to restrict our trade with China who, for all their faults, haven't been a bad partner.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#52

Post by zimablue »

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #37
131012 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. On the other hand, I still agree that the phenomenon of rating people based on data is something that happens in the West too. Whenever you buy insurance, be assured that your whole life is scanned before you get a price.

> At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. I assume you're white?

This is a mental comparison. Leaving aside police gun deaths because that's it's own insane internal logic/world, do you think that black people in the US don't have more rights than Chinese citizens? So for example, what do you think would happen in both countries if a senior party official punched you on the street?

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#53

Post by TremendousJudge »

zimablue wrote: post #49
jstanley wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Random NSA people knowing stuff they shouldn't isn't the same as 1984 on machine-learning steroids tracking your every thought. I'm pretty sure the Chinese government has some sort of "1984 on machine-learning steroids" type stuff as well, so they might not be as different as you think.

Sorry I haven't written clearly so you've missed what I was saying. I mean that the privacy violations of the US are of a lower order than the industrialised scale of the Chinese, and not just collecting and filtering for terrorist flags but plugging into eg. citizen scores.

You realize that automated credit scores are a thing in the US right? China is taking the concept a step further, but it's not unique to them

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#54

Post by mtrovo »

zimablue wrote: post #43
vidarh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes a big difference if you're an American citizen, in America. Outside its own territory, the US has a long history of being far more aggressive than China, so for someone who is outside both the US and China, it's not at all a given that it's better being spied on by the US than China.

Aggressive than China with countries or individuals? Which country would you feel safer taking a vacation in, having insulted the premier in a viral tweet?

I think OP was asking in regard to individuals from anywhere else in the world visiting countries anywhere else in the world besides US (or NATO). The question you could ask is which country would bomb people with drones based on cellphone metadata? https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/d738aq/us-drones-...

I get the whole point of we at least have the freedom to discuss this but it doesn't work without its hiccups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laura_Poitras#Government_surve...

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#55

Post by Mistletoe »

s4vi0r wrote: post #22
chrisco255 wrote: post #12

I openly wonder and worry if China will ever reach a point where it has the influence to extend its social credit system beyond its borders? Imagine you can't do business with China unless you agree to be spied on and data collected? Perhaps if you've ever criticized China you suffer further consequences?

You mean in a manner similar to the united states at the moment? :^) China has some serious issues, but people acting like this is out of the norm is ridiculous. The US is afraid of Chinas rising influence/power and these sorts of articles attacking it are a common tactic. Like, great - there's no explicit social credit system in the US on an app where you're barred from leaving the country because of who you're frie…

Ah that fresh whataboutism I’m always sure to see on any HN thread discussing Chinese human rights violations.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#56

Post by cptskippy »

zimablue wrote: post #52
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. I assume you're white?

This is a mental comparison. Leaving aside police gun deaths because that's it's own insane internal logic/world, do you think that black people in the US don't have more rights than Chinese citizens? So for example, what do you think would happen in both countries if a senior party official punched you on the street?

> what do you think would happen in both countries if a senior party official punched you on the street?

In China they'd arrest you and that would be the last anyone ever heard of you.

In the US the cops would show up and shoot you on site because they thought you had a gun. There'd be a 24 hour news cycle of outrage and then you'd be forgotten.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#57

Post by walterbell »

TremendousJudge wrote: post #53
zimablue wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry I haven't written clearly so you've missed what I was saying. I mean that the privacy violations of the US are of a lower order than the industrialised scale of the Chinese, and not just collecting and filtering for terrorist flags but plugging into eg. citizen scores.

You realize that automated credit scores are a thing in the US right? China is taking the concept a step further, but it's not unique to them

US credit scores are subject to many laws, including the length of time that data records can affect scores and processes for disputing data records. Individual businesses have the option of ignoring credit scores, e.g. by charging a premium for high-risk customers, or implementing their own proprietary scoring mechanism tailored to specific markets and risk profiles.

This is a world of difference from opaque centralized scores without due process.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#58

Post by baddox »

zimablue wrote: post #23

All the 10,000 arguments about "the US does this". Yeah but the US is a democracy, and criticize it all you like but that means something. It means that Trump is there because the average American (accounting for the broken electoral college, voter suppression etc) wanted him to be. And that there are real limits on his power, and a term limit. Feels like the critics of western democracies who rightfully want to impr…

I dislike using “democracy” as an excuse to blame the oppressed for their own oppression. Even if democracy is working and there is a strong correlation between policy and the policy preferences of the population (which is a separate but worthwhile debate), it’s simply not an excuse for the government to do oppressive things.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#59

Post by chrisco255 »

s4vi0r wrote: post #22
chrisco255 wrote: post #12

I openly wonder and worry if China will ever reach a point where it has the influence to extend its social credit system beyond its borders? Imagine you can't do business with China unless you agree to be spied on and data collected? Perhaps if you've ever criticized China you suffer further consequences?

You mean in a manner similar to the united states at the moment? :^) China has some serious issues, but people acting like this is out of the norm is ridiculous. The US is afraid of Chinas rising influence/power and these sorts of articles attacking it are a common tactic. Like, great - there's no explicit social credit system in the US on an app where you're barred from leaving the country because of who you're frie…

No in the U.S. a handful out of a million cops are bad apples. Some legitimately find themselves in difficult-to-interpret life-or-death snap decisions on a daily or weekly basis and they get paid 1/4 or less of what some privileged engineer on HN does. And then a few bad apples plus a few legitimate accidents are over-analyzed as some proof of systemic racism in one of the most diverse countries on earth.

Meanwhile, you want to talk about abuse of minority rights, take a look at China's treatment of its muslim population:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/08/world/asia/china-uighur-m... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/china-uighur-m...

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#60

Post by Vi0 »

zimablue wrote: post #52
SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. I assume you're white?

This is a mental comparison. Leaving aside police gun deaths because that's it's own insane internal logic/world, do you think that black people in the US don't have more rights than Chinese citizens? So for example, what do you think would happen in both countries if a senior party official punched you on the street?

Community service, win reelection, and a trivial fine in America.
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