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US asks allies to avoid Huawei

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Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#41

Post by vidarh »

zimablue wrote: post #23

All the 10,000 arguments about "the US does this". Yeah but the US is a democracy, and criticize it all you like but that means something. It means that Trump is there because the average American (accounting for the broken electoral college, voter suppression etc) wanted him to be. And that there are real limits on his power, and a term limit. Feels like the critics of western democracies who rightfully want to impr…

That makes a big difference if you're an American citizen, in America.

Outside its own territory, the US has a long history of being far more aggressive than China, so for someone who is outside both the US and China, it's not at all a given that it's better being spied on by the US than China.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#42

Post by zimablue »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #29

So basically strongarming everyone into using hardware that the US government has a backdoor into. Not going to lie, simply based on historical US international interventions, I'd rather be spyed on by the Chinese. They're less likely to start a war or overthrow governments.

Really? Do you think the US government would use your information in a more or less restricted way than the Chinese? Would your answer change if you were: a) a citizen of the US, b) a citizen in China, c) a citizen of a country where china has massive influence, d) a citizen of a country where the US has massive influence, e) a citizen of a strongly independent country?

Your answer is so baffling to me that I checked whether you're a real person, and you seem to be. I'd be surprised if either China or the US launched a war because of your personal communications so the question seems to come more down to who you trust to abuse the information more/screw you in an unaccountable way.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#43

Post by zimablue »

vidarh wrote: post #41
zimablue wrote: post #23

All the 10,000 arguments about "the US does this". Yeah but the US is a democracy, and criticize it all you like but that means something. It means that Trump is there because the average American (accounting for the broken electoral college, voter suppression etc) wanted him to be. And that there are real limits on his power, and a term limit. Feels like the critics of western democracies who rightfully want to impr…

That makes a big difference if you're an American citizen, in America. Outside its own territory, the US has a long history of being far more aggressive than China, so for someone who is outside both the US and China, it's not at all a given that it's better being spied on by the US than China.

Aggressive than China with countries or individuals? Which country would you feel safer taking a vacation in, having insulted the premier in a viral tweet?

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#44

Post by jstanley »

zimablue wrote: post #23

All the 10,000 arguments about "the US does this". Yeah but the US is a democracy, and criticize it all you like but that means something. It means that Trump is there because the average American (accounting for the broken electoral college, voter suppression etc) wanted him to be. And that there are real limits on his power, and a term limit. Feels like the critics of western democracies who rightfully want to impr…

> Random NSA people knowing stuff they shouldn't isn't the same as 1984 on machine-learning steroids tracking your every thought.

I'm pretty sure the Chinese government has some sort of "1984 on machine-learning steroids" type stuff as well, so they might not be as different as you think.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#45

Post by dingaling »

zimablue wrote: post #42
Mikeb85 wrote: post #29

So basically strongarming everyone into using hardware that the US government has a backdoor into. Not going to lie, simply based on historical US international interventions, I'd rather be spyed on by the Chinese. They're less likely to start a war or overthrow governments.

Really? Do you think the US government would use your information in a more or less restricted way than the Chinese? Would your answer change if you were: a) a citizen of the US, b) a citizen in China, c) a citizen of a country where china has massive influence, d) a citizen of a country where the US has massive influence, e) a citizen of a strongly independent country? Your answer is so baffling to me that I checked…

Well I live in the UK and am more concerned with Five Eyes monitoring me than China.

China might be able to hack my servers or steal from my PayPal account, if they cared. Five Eyes can ruin my life and leave me destitute, or imprisoned. Or just have me SWATted if I am particularly troublesome.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#46

Post by wpdev_63 »

aplummer wrote: post #20
dtwest wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's kind of a weird point to make since the NSA spies on Americans and Europeans too.

Ah that would be illegal. The NSA asks Australia to spy on Americans and report back and visa versa. Which is not against the spirit of the law at all /s.

Just so people out of the loop understand: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/20/us-uk-secret-d... The british government actually encouraged and even paid 100 million dollars for the nsa(cia) to spy on their citizens.

While china's surveillance system is scary because it's in public, what might actually be more dangerous is the massive surveillance campaigns the US is carrying out. The US is more than happy to provide surveillance to all 5 eye countries.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#47

Post by bloak »

zimablue wrote: post #43
vidarh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes a big difference if you're an American citizen, in America. Outside its own territory, the US has a long history of being far more aggressive than China, so for someone who is outside both the US and China, it's not at all a given that it's better being spied on by the US than China.

Aggressive than China with countries or individuals? Which country would you feel safer taking a vacation in, having insulted the premier in a viral tweet?

Hard to say, but if you have no interest in visiting either, so it's renditions and extraditions that you have to worry about, then ...

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#48

Post by prolikewh0a »

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #37
131012 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. On the other hand, I still agree that the phenomenon of rating people based on data is something that happens in the West too. Whenever you buy insurance, be assured that your whole life is scanned before you get a price.

> At least in the US you have constitutional rights and somewhat efficient check & balances to limit abuses. I assume you're white?

Exactly.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#49

Post by zimablue »

jstanley wrote: post #44
zimablue wrote: post #23

All the 10,000 arguments about "the US does this". Yeah but the US is a democracy, and criticize it all you like but that means something. It means that Trump is there because the average American (accounting for the broken electoral college, voter suppression etc) wanted him to be. And that there are real limits on his power, and a term limit. Feels like the critics of western democracies who rightfully want to impr…

> Random NSA people knowing stuff they shouldn't isn't the same as 1984 on machine-learning steroids tracking your every thought. I'm pretty sure the Chinese government has some sort of "1984 on machine-learning steroids" type stuff as well, so they might not be as different as you think.

Sorry I haven't written clearly so you've missed what I was saying. I mean that the privacy violations of the US are of a lower order than the industrialised scale of the Chinese, and not just collecting and filtering for terrorist flags but plugging into eg. citizen scores.

Re: US asks allies to avoid Huawei

#50

Post by zimablue »

dingaling wrote: post #45
zimablue wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Do you think the US government would use your information in a more or less restricted way than the Chinese? Would your answer change if you were: a) a citizen of the US, b) a citizen in China, c) a citizen of a country where china has massive influence, d) a citizen of a country where the US has massive influence, e) a citizen of a strongly independent country? Your answer is so baffling to me that I checked…

Well I live in the UK and am more concerned with Five Eyes monitoring me than China. China might be able to hack my servers or steal from my PayPal account, if they cared. Five Eyes can ruin my life and leave me destitute, or imprisoned. Or just have me SWATted if I am particularly troublesome.

So that's a fair point, you're more concerned re UK/US because you are citizen/in a controlled country. I think that might be how a lot of people feel, and I agree. But can you see how for the equivalent guy living in someone firmly under China's influence they would be more scared of Chinese surveillance than you are of Five-Eyes? And that it would be further reaching in terms of what sort of actions might lead to repercussions?
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