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AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

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Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point here, though, is that it doesn't matter whether the driver could've seen them, because culpability rests with the driver by default (except, as mentioned, in situations such as motorways, where pedestrians aren't allowed). In very general terms, as a pedestrian in the UK, you have no particular right to step into the road other than at marked crossings, but as soon as you do, you have total right of way, no…

I'm sure it works fine in practice, but it's still not ideal if you can put one foot into the street and oblige cars to slam on their brakes.

If you're driving a car and someone walks in front of the car you'll slam on the brakes.

This is independent of legality. I'd hope that it'd be the case even if laws were passed that explicitly punished braking in such a scenario.

Anyway, in the UK, it's illegal to walk down the side of a motorway. But basically anywhere else is free reign for pedestrians.

People don't generally walk out in front of (fast moving) cars because they're not suicidal.

In a place like London it's fun to watch (and take part in) the stand-off between cars and pedestrians though.

I womble through crossings all the time. The lights are advisory for pedestrians. They're designed that way; the green man exists for the elderly and children.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes - a well-known example was Anssi Vanjoki (former Nokia director) getting a fine of 116,000 euros for driving 75 km/h in a 50 zone. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1759791.stm I have heard of other countries that have similar systems.

Huge fines for the rich are amusing but scaling that part of the cost doesn't address the core problem very well. Actually, a fee of 14 days of income sounds crippling to someone who's poor, so that's an example of it not helping at all .

Absolutely. Those with less income are going from day to day without any significant savings, those with more may well have enough saved to survive several months.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most justice systems are built on the assumption that it's better to let 100 guilty people go than convicting one innocent person. Once we accept that it's OK to convict innocent people as long as the averages are fine then we are heading into serious trouble.

You're comparing a merchant system with a criminal justice system. Obviously the cost or the downside of false positive is very different between those two, as well as the cost of making the judgement itself, given the difference in scale.

We are talking about the justice system here.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#314

> The police said they have upgraded their tech to avoid issues like this in the future. if (person_id == "Dong Mingzhu") { // TODO: generalise this return false }

Someone could just do that every time that problem occurs; commit a new if-statement, close the ticket, and upper management says "Look at how much work this guy gets done! Now there's our star programmer."

  > A billion lines of code??? Incredible!!!

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#315
post #4

Add to that a justice system also mostly automated and you are quickly caught in a Kafkaesque nightmare you can't get out if something goes wrong. Imagine the justice system run like google support. Even if something is clearly wrong you can't clear it up if you are not a famous person with a big Twitter following.

on a tangent... "caught in a Kafkaesque nightmare" I've been meaning to read kafka one day. Is there a title in specific you would recommend to start with?

I don't know how good the English translations are but I would look at "the Trial" or "Metamorphosis". This is a good short story: https://genius.com/Franz-kafka-before-the-law-annotated

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#316
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fines should be some percentage of income. Here in Finland the record speeding ticked is over 100,000 euros. One guy in Switzerland received $1 million speeding ticket for driving his Mercedes SLS AMG over 280 km/h. That's how hit should be.

Scaling fines up to higher incomes for things that don't really matter (jaywalking, minor traffic violations) seems antithetical to the individualistic core of American culture. We typically try to equalize society by raising the floor for the many, rather than lowering the ceiling for the few.

> things that don't really matter

If they really don't matter, why forbid them at all?

For things that are worth forbidding, scaling is surely necessary to create a meaningful disincentive for the rich, without destroying the poor by setting very high flat fines.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#317
post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A machine can be tested for bias and measures taken against such bias are certainly followed. To what degree? Based on first-order data, some populations really do commit more crime. However, we know that background/poverty is the real, underlying cause. And even if we fed enough data to an algorithm to avoid that bias, avoiding the bias isn't enough. What you really want to do is tackle the cause. If the AI is a b…

We know somehow that current data is biased right? We can quantify that somehow, staying on the conservative side. Then, we can explicitly correct for that quantified bias. This loses the whole 'AI is mathematics, and mathematics is unbiased' appeal, because we are explicitly adding a bias to counter a pre-existing one. My point is, this (or more advanced methods) is possible with AI. You can't do anything like this…

i think we all agree that AI/computer based surveillance and law enforcement systems are more flexible and powerful (in a scalability/omniscience sense) than a human-based police force

the disagreement is whether or not we want a more powerful distributed system monitoring and enforcing the law

cops aren't perfect and often have biases but you can't just push some code to a server and make them do whatever you want them to, as you could potentially do with an AI-based system.

if bad people got control of the system they would be able to more effectively impose their will on the population

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#318
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be willfully misunderstanding the point. But I suspect that’s intentional. If you really think this, please do some reading on the subject of how court fees and small-scale civil violations and all the consequences of those things can lead to a vicious cycle of financial destruction for families on the edge of economic self sufficiency.

I'm not misunderstanding it. I'm saying there is no good solution here. Feel free to propose a punishment that isn't disproportionate to somebody. I don't think such a punishment exists, aside from crazy edge cases like "do not enforce the law". Go ahead. Try to make a suggestion that won't punish some people more than others. In case it makes you feel any better about the system of fines, we can say that the disprop…

Arguing over fairness may be a dead end. But what about the practical question of incentives? How can a flat fine provide a significant disincentive to the very rich (without being so high that it would completely wipe out the average person)?

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the case of jaywalking, the answer is simple. You just make it legal. Cars can slow down. Mmmm I dunno about that. Drivers have minimum reaction times and cars have stopping distances. Giving pedestrians the right-of-way in every situation seems like a recipe for a lot of collisions. It could work, but I think it would involve re-designing countless intersections to provide higher visibility of pedestrians for d…

UK has never had jaywalking laws. Most countries don't. We have crossings too, of course, which are optional, but sensible to use when it's rush hours etc. There's no sign that our collisions or injuries are disproportionately high. A pedestrian crosses when they feel it is safe to do so, and anywhere along the road they choose. Having started to cross they have priority over traffic. Lately some drivers are less inc…

I googled this quickly, and I'm seeing the UK has 36 deaths per billion miles driven [1] and USA is 1.7 [2]. Can you cite your sources that the UK isn't disproportionately high? I could be reading the numbers wrong.

[1] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

[2] https://injuryprevention.bmj.com/content/11/4/232

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#320
Be careful no-one actually links to the real info on HN. We wouldn't want to stray to far from Fox.

(The fact it does say the persons name publically is scary, the fact they got it wrong is technically interesting)

https://www.abacusnews.com/digital-life/facial-recognition-c...

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