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AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

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Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#251

Post by qw »

arghwhat wrote: post #245
monadgonad wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not being punished for that, you're being punished for a crime. That happens to be proportional to what you can give. What's not fair is fines that barely impact wealthy people.

Neither does it seem fair that I'll be fined twice as much if I work twice the hours, does it?

A fine is supposed to discourage people from breaking the law. Is it fair that wealthy people can ignore the laws because they do not feel any real consequenes?

I have heard drivers who constantly break the rules, because they can easily afford the fine. To them the occasional fine is just the price they have to pay for easy parking, or saving a minute on their drive.

What alternative do you suggest?

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#252

Post by chki »

arghwhat wrote: post #230
yesenadam wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems ridiculous to me to assume, as you seem to, that rich=hardworking and poor=lazy. Why not rich=lazy, poor=hardworking? That seems to make at least as much sense to me, to correspond to reality. No-one mentioned "changing the magnitude of the crime". The point is, if you get a $1000 fine, that could mean absolutely nothing to a millionaire/billionaire, but a lot to someone with $1000. Yet you talk as if fining…

This only holds for those that a born rich, or fell upon immense luck. For those below Dubai princes, the riches come from an entirely distorted work/life balance where you are never really off-duty, and immense responsibility. I intend to get there one day with hard work so my family can be well off. However, I do not see why it makes sense to punish me for it. Fining me twice as much because I work double the hours…

By that standard you could also propose that the poor should be fined even heavier because they are the lazy ones and should get punished for that.

There is no actual reasoning in your arguments why the fines should be the same for everybody, instead there is an argument why richer people should not be fined higher, while acknowledging that the height of a fine will impact people with differing levels of wealth in different ways.

Actually we need to think about why we are putting fines on people. The answer is: We want to deter bad behaviour. But if we take parking as an example: Some people do not mind a 25€ fine for bad parking because of their wealth so the fine doesn't work on them, while it works on other people. So our goal was to deter people from behaving in a certain way but we partially failed to do so. Now one option is to increase the ticket price for everyone (but I guess you are not arguing for that option). The other one is to attach the fine to income. The third option of doing nothing leads to a system where people can break the rules by being wealthy. But this is obviously one of the things that we seek to avoid in making rules for people to behave.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#253

Post by arghwhat »

Entalpi wrote: post #238
arghwhat wrote: post #191

Yes, but even hidden, it's probably still going to appear quite significant, and I do believe that at some point, the fine size becomes nonsensical. But then again, I do not think that who you are or what you have should change the magnitude of the crime you commit. I don't think it is sensible that I should get greater fines because I chose to bust my ass and suffer from stress to gain more for my family, whereas I…

Just working hard does not entail success implying that it does is untrue.

That's a vast misinterpretation of what I wrote.

Even for those in absolute poverty, if they work twice the hours, they will earn twice the wage. It may be an increase from $5 a month to $10 a month, but it's still double.

The only time where twice the effort gives no gain is if you're doing something that has no gain at all. However, the poor work for cheap, not for free.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#255

Post by arghwhat »

GuiA wrote: post #247
arghwhat wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only holds for those that a born rich, or fell upon immense luck. For those below Dubai princes, the riches come from an entirely distorted work/life balance where you are never really off-duty, and immense responsibility. I intend to get there one day with hard work so my family can be well off. However, I do not see why it makes sense to punish me for it. Fining me twice as much because I work double the hours…

> I intend to get there one day with hard work so my family can be well off. One day? You mean you aren’t rich yet? Sounds to me like you’re just a lazy bum making excuses. /s

Hah, well, the life-reducing stress I refer to in other comments were taken from my own experience.

I'm working a full-time job, doing consultancy work on the side to help cover costs, and trying to build a company myself while doing all that.

Apart from the time spent telling people that they are wrong on the internet (which is incredibly unproductive, as it is both stressful and generally a waste of time, but https://xkcd.com/386/), I don't really have spare time. I don't have weekends, and barely lunch breaks. I go home to sleep, and wake up to work.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#256

Post by [deleted] »

maxxxxx wrote: post #4

Add to that a justice system also mostly automated and you are quickly caught in a Kafkaesque nightmare you can't get out if something goes wrong. Imagine the justice system run like google support. Even if something is clearly wrong you can't clear it up if you are not a famous person with a big Twitter following.

[deleted]

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#257

Post by arghwhat »

qw wrote: post #242
arghwhat wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot say much about the stats, but I only really know of rich-by-work rather than rich-by-luck. But I do not think we should design a system to cater for outliers with immense wealth. We should cater for the general population, and I believe that for non-Dubai prince wealth, it is likely that it likely came through work.

You need to add social factors too. If you are born into poverty, it is not simply enough to work a bit harder than the average. The weight of all the factors against you will probably increase the workload by a magnitude compared to someone born into an average family.

We are not working in absolutes here. Working twice as much does not make you Bill Gates, but it does double your income for an hourly paid job.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#258

Post by pessimizer »

arghwhat wrote: post #245
monadgonad wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not being punished for that, you're being punished for a crime. That happens to be proportional to what you can give. What's not fair is fines that barely impact wealthy people.

Neither does it seem fair that I'll be fined twice as much if I work twice the hours, does it?

You seem to think that breaking laws should be a reward for working hard.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#259

Post by dahfizz »

askvictor wrote: post #225
dahfizz wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that mean unemployed people just don't get fined when they speed,etc?

This is something that Melbourne, AU has recently grappled with - do you give public transport ticket fines to homeless people? You can give them as many fines as you want, but they're not going to pay them, and will just end up making it harder for them to get out of the cycle they're trapped in. I believe homeless no longer get fined for not having a ticket here. You can argue technicalities and loopholes all you w…

I take your point, but there is a big difference between being homeless and being without income. Retirees are the most obvious example, but there are plenty of 'normal' people who don't have an income that basically get to speed and park illegally for free under this sort of system. Unless of course, we put in a minimum fine for everything and charge extra based on income beyond that. But this does nothing to help the poor and ends up just being a punishment for having a good job.

I also think people imagine the super rich having to pay huge fines under this kind of system, but it's the same problem as with taxing the super wealthy. Their income is actually very low relative to the wealth they are accumulating.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#260

Post by arghwhat »

qw wrote: post #251
arghwhat wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither does it seem fair that I'll be fined twice as much if I work twice the hours, does it?

A fine is supposed to discourage people from breaking the law. Is it fair that wealthy people can ignore the laws because they do not feel any real consequenes? I have heard drivers who constantly break the rules, because they can easily afford the fine. To them the occasional fine is just the price they have to pay for easy parking, or saving a minute on their drive. What alternative do you suggest?

Several ideas:

1. Given a problem with people continuously ignoring the law, a simple serial-offender system should deal with it fairly. We already have that up here, with you having three "marks" on your license. Some offenses take a mark, with 3 marks costing you your license. Driving without a license has increasing penalty for repeated offenses, including jail-time after the first or first two offenses. We do not have the absurd concept of "bail", and with lifespans being roughly similar, poor and rich end up with similar pains if they are repeat offenders.

2. Given that very wealthy people being able to ignore laws appear to be outliers, with the average person not being able to do this, I would say that you could create special cases for these outliers. For example, average/rich brackets. Or even poor/average/filthy rich.

3. Just not designing laws that govern entire countries to deal with a few outliers. There will always be outliers, and people with enough money to get out of any situation, whether that is paying fines or paying good lawyers to wiggle their way out. There will also always be people parking illegally, or speeding. Hell, if I recall correctly, the Finnish government had stated that the speeding fines are important income, so you also suddenly end up with fines being necessary, rather than them being only a tool to stop an offense, which is absurd.

(And for reference, for #3, I am talking about outliers within those that violate traffic laws. A serial killer is obviously an outlier which laws should be designed for, but I consider this a very different case.)

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