AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking • Hacker News Board

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#221

Post by ryanmarsh » Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #119

ryanmarsh wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is something ordinary people who haven’t run afoul of the justice system cannot understand. It must be witnessed first hand to be comprehended. The justice system is a big boulder at the top of a mountain. Once an arrest or accusation sets in it motion, unless you are powerful and or wealthy, it will do what boulders do, it can do no different. It is not cognizant, it just is. It takes immense resources to stop…

I'd expect conviction rates to be pretty high. It means they are only bringing charges when they have strong evidence. If conviction rates were low I'd be asking why that prosecutor was wasting his time on cases he can't win.

It means they are only bringing charges when they have strong evidence

We would hope so. It could also mean far worse things are happening. We’ve all seen documentaries and news shows of people wrongly convicted. Why do we think the only incidences are the ones reported.

I’ve watched detectives lie on the stand when a guilty verdict was already in hand. Why do that? How do they treat the innocent if that’s how they act when the facts of the case are enough to convict?

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#222

Post by justAnotherNET » Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

asmosoinio wrote: post #187

askvictor wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland, I believe, scales fines proportionally to your income. Not perfect (the rich can more easily hide their income than the not so rich), but a good start.

Yes - a well-known example was Anssi Vanjoki (former Nokia director) getting a fine of 116,000 euros for driving 75 km/h in a 50 zone. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1759791.stm I have heard of other countries that have similar systems.

thats absolutely insane.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#223

Post by yesenadam » Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

arghwhat wrote: post #191

Yes, but even hidden, it's probably still going to appear quite significant, and I do believe that at some point, the fine size becomes nonsensical. But then again, I do not think that who you are or what you have should change the magnitude of the crime you commit. I don't think it is sensible that I should get greater fines because I chose to bust my ass and suffer from stress to gain more for my family, whereas I…

It seems ridiculous to me to assume, as you seem to, that rich=hardworking and poor=lazy. Why not rich=lazy, poor=hardworking? That seems to make at least as much sense to me, to correspond to reality.

No-one mentioned "changing the magnitude of the crime". The point is, if you get a $1000 fine, that could mean absolutely nothing to a millionaire/billionaire, but a lot to someone with $1000. Yet you talk as if fining a rich person more would be grossly unfair. Maybe you think everyone should pay the same taxes too. etc.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#224

Post by arghwhat » Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

monadgonad wrote: post #206

arghwhat wrote: post #191

Yes, but even hidden, it's probably still going to appear quite significant, and I do believe that at some point, the fine size becomes nonsensical. But then again, I do not think that who you are or what you have should change the magnitude of the crime you commit. I don't think it is sensible that I should get greater fines because I chose to bust my ass and suffer from stress to gain more for my family, whereas I…

Oh, give it a break. People don't choose to be poor.

I did not say that people chose to be poor. However, it does not seem fair to be punished for working harder than required.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#225

Post by askvictor » Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

dahfizz wrote: post #207

askvictor wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland, I believe, scales fines proportionally to your income. Not perfect (the rich can more easily hide their income than the not so rich), but a good start.

Does that mean unemployed people just don't get fined when they speed,etc?

This is something that Melbourne, AU has recently grappled with - do you give public transport ticket fines to homeless people? You can give them as many fines as you want, but they're not going to pay them, and will just end up making it harder for them to get out of the cycle they're trapped in. I believe homeless no longer get fined for not having a ticket here. You can argue technicalities and loopholes all you want, but at both extremes (very rich and very poor) the 'normal' system of fines just doesn't make any sense.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#226

Post by bsder » Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #6

maxxxxx wrote: post #4

Add to that a justice system also mostly automated and you are quickly caught in a Kafkaesque nightmare you can't get out if something goes wrong. Imagine the justice system run like google support. Even if something is clearly wrong you can't clear it up if you are not a famous person with a big Twitter following.

On the other hand, a justice system which has most of the menial tasks automated might have more resources to do the important tasks well. Similarly, Google could have a mostly automated system detecting violations and such, and also a good human support system with power to override the decisions of the former; the two are not really incompatible.

> On the other hand, a justice system which has most of the menial tasks automated might have more resources to do the important tasks well.

Justice systems are always about exceptions. Computers handle exceptions EXTREMELY poorly.

A justice system should be required to have a human on record for every action taken against another human being. The computers can be used to verify this, but they should not be allowed to be primary.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#227

Post by gsich » Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 10:01 PM UTC

tlrobinson wrote: post #48

reaperducer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's China. So she's just have her social credit score repeatedly dinged every time the bus ran a red light until she wasn't allowed to travel anymore, wasn't allowed to work anymore, wasn't allowed to have a bank account, or allowed out of her apartment. Bureaucracy is so much more efficient when everything is automated, and we're all tabulated. We can just let the computers disappear troublesome people. If a few pe…

Basically the Black Mirror “Nosedive” episode.

An even more dystopian view can be seen in the episode "White Christmas" at the end. I don't know if you have seen it, so I won't spoil it here.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#228

Post by csomar » Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 10:05 PM UTC

raleigh_user wrote: post #44

Heres further proof the justice system is screwed. Yesterday I was stopped while driving for not having current tags. Registration was renewed but I didn't have the sticker yet. Cop looked at my paperwork said all good be back in 5. Come to find out, I haven't had a valid license in 5 years. There was a mistake in court 5 years ago when I paid a fine (speeding ticket). I have a receipt from court saying all settled/m…

> Heres further proof the justice system is screwed.

I'm confused. Do you live in China or the US. Because the article talks about China.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#229

Post by askvictor » Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 10:06 PM UTC

arrrg wrote: post #213

askvictor wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Finland, I believe, scales fines proportionally to your income. Not perfect (the rich can more easily hide their income than the not so rich), but a good start.

The problem isn’t so much that the rich can hide their income more easily, it‘s that the value of money doesn’t increase linearly. The more money you have available, the less valuable any additional unit of money is to you and the less it hurts if money is taken away from you. Proportional fines help, but they aren’t perfectly fair.

I suppose there's nothing requiring the proportion-curve for fines to be linear - but that might get silly and have other consequences. I guess the question comes down to value - finding something that the wrongdoer values (and remove it) that is in proportion to the damage to society they did. I would guess, that for the rich that we're talking about, time and/or freedom are more important than money.

The other end of the scale is interesting too - how do you disincentivise/punish for people who don't have any money and just aren't going to pay any fines you give them (i.e. the homeless)?

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#230

Post by arghwhat » Sun, Nov 25, 2018, 10:07 PM UTC

yesenadam wrote: post #223

arghwhat wrote: post #191

Yes, but even hidden, it's probably still going to appear quite significant, and I do believe that at some point, the fine size becomes nonsensical. But then again, I do not think that who you are or what you have should change the magnitude of the crime you commit. I don't think it is sensible that I should get greater fines because I chose to bust my ass and suffer from stress to gain more for my family, whereas I…

It seems ridiculous to me to assume, as you seem to, that rich=hardworking and poor=lazy. Why not rich=lazy, poor=hardworking? That seems to make at least as much sense to me, to correspond to reality. No-one mentioned "changing the magnitude of the crime". The point is, if you get a $1000 fine, that could mean absolutely nothing to a millionaire/billionaire, but a lot to someone with $1000. Yet you talk as if fining…

This only holds for those that a born rich, or fell upon immense luck.

For those below Dubai princes, the riches come from an entirely distorted work/life balance where you are never really off-duty, and immense responsibility.

I intend to get there one day with hard work so my family can be well off. However, I do not see why it makes sense to punish me for it. Fining me twice as much because I work double the hours is unfair, and it certainly doesn't encourage growth.

Also, for us small countries up in Scandinavia, a lot of business is lost to the US (technological services) and China (manufacturing), which is a big drain on our economy. Having actual local business (rather than just occasional offices of tax-evading organisations like Apple/Amazon/Microsoft that never have any income pass through here) greatly benefits our local economies.

Even for those truly rich, they are usually rich because they know how to handle money (i.e. not wasting it on fines). The dickheads will do it regardless what it costs them, so setting a system to target them, while harming the common population, seems absurd.