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AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

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Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#191

Post by arghwhat »

Yes, but even hidden, it's probably still going to appear quite significant, and I do believe that at some point, the fine size becomes nonsensical.

But then again, I do not think that who you are or what you have should change the magnitude of the crime you commit. I don't think it is sensible that I should get greater fines because I chose to bust my ass and suffer from stress to gain more for my family, whereas I could get a much smaller fine if I just lived a more laid back life.

Granted, it's supposed to differentiate between the rich and poor, but in doing so it also differentiates between the hardworking and the lazy, punishing productivity and rewarding laziness.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#192

Post by NeedMoreTea »

wgerard wrote: post #172
coldtea wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What happens when a driver hits a pedestrian? Is there an investigation into whether the driver could've stopped in time? The driver would be more guilty as they should have been going with a suitable speed and pay attention to the road when driving inside the city.

Living in a major city myself, I can think of several intersections where one could be traveling the speed limit and paying attention but be completely unable to stop in time for a pedestrian crossing unexpectedly. There are numerous streets and corners that are really poorly lit because of scaffolding/debris/etc.

If there was poor visibility for the driver, there's almost certainly poor visibility for the pedestrian too. Most are sensible enough to walk a little further to where they can get a bit better look at what traffic is coming.

If I did hit someone at a visibility blind spot I'd expect to be shouted at by the cop too for not slowing down to a speed suitable for the visibility, and that the speed limit is a maximum sir. In that special sarcastic voice, common to all British cops. That might be later reflected in my fine or penalty. :)

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#193

Post by coldtea »

jacquesm wrote: post #186
coldtea wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>In the case of jaywalking, the answer is simple. You just make it legal. Cars can slow down. > Mmmm I dunno about that. Drivers have minimum reaction times and cars have stopping distances Actually in many countries like the Netherlands and the UK, inside the city pedestrians have priority (right of way) over traffic everywhere. If a pedestrian crosses you stop, no jaywalking BS.

That's dangerously wrong. No, pedestrians do not have right of way over traffic everywhere inside cities in NL (though you could be forgiven to think it is that way by observing traffic). Pedestrians do have right of way inside 'woonerven'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf Now, the fact that pedestrians do not have right of way does not mean cars are going to flatten people with impunity, of course every driver…

Probably "right to cross" would be a better term. What I'm getting at is pedestrians can cross the road in cities, without it considered jaywalking/illegal, and cars will generally just stop for them if they see them wanting to cross.

Of course if you just jump into traffic in the last minute you'll be hit, and it will be on you.

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2017/09/05/when-there-is-...

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#194

Post by will_brown »

markdown wrote: post #161
will_brown wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s funny but at the end of the day what youre talking about is the realization of idiocracy through our implementation of shitty “automation” using software. I mean basically you have a computer system where the court system, law enforcement and DMV are all saying your license is expired for failure to pay...when you actually paid. Now you are getting more tickets and basically stuck in an infinite loop of hell. I’…

> can file a small claims case > it will still cost me time/effort . In my country, costs can be added to the claim. Is it not the same in the US?

In the US we separate attorneys fees from other “court costs”. Typically a winning party in my county would win their costs (in a hypothetical case like mine that would be the initial filing and maybe the cost to serve the court filing on the Bank).

Attorneys fees are more complicated and the general rule is actually that each party bears it’s own attorneys fees, but there are many execrations from statutes authorizing them in certain types of cases and situations or if a contract includes a provision providing for them. It’s possible one or more contracts I have with the bank includes such a provision, I’d have to look at my credit card agreement (it may even require mediation, but that’s part of the small claims process in my jurisdiction anyway). Also It’s typically not allowed that a lawyer representing themselves can be awarded fees.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#195

Post by wgerard »

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #192
wgerard wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in a major city myself, I can think of several intersections where one could be traveling the speed limit and paying attention but be completely unable to stop in time for a pedestrian crossing unexpectedly. There are numerous streets and corners that are really poorly lit because of scaffolding/debris/etc.

If there was poor visibility for the driver, there's almost certainly poor visibility for the pedestrian too. Most are sensible enough to walk a little further to where they can get a bit better look at what traffic is coming. If I did hit someone at a visibility blind spot I'd expect to be shouted at by the cop too for not slowing down to a speed suitable for the visibility, and that the speed limit is a maximum sir…

Hah, fair enough!

For some reason I'm imagining the worst-case scenario of a pedestrian completely oblivious to what's going on around them and just crossing without looking on a busy street, which I realize is pretty unlikely.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#196

Post by wgerard »

coldtea wrote: post #188
wgerard wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, is it just inside the major cities? Not everywhere?

All cities, major AND minor (and villages). You wouldn't except this to happen to the equivalent of the New Jersey Turnpike, of course. So, on high speed highways, on the other hand, you're often not allowed to randomly cross, except in specific areas.

Interesting. Thanks for the response!

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#197

Post by nabla9 »

nitrogen wrote: post #134
nabla9 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fines should be some percentage of income. Here in Finland the record speeding ticked is over 100,000 euros. One guy in Switzerland received $1 million speeding ticket for driving his Mercedes SLS AMG over 280 km/h. That's how hit should be.

Scaling fines up to higher incomes for things that don't really matter (jaywalking, minor traffic violations) seems antithetical to the individualistic core of American culture. We typically try to equalize society by raising the floor for the many, rather than lowering the ceiling for the few.

Fixed percentage equalizes the disincentive.

The goal of fine is discourage. The same fine for all relative to income provides more equal discouragement.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#198

Post by jacquesm »

coldtea wrote: post #193
jacquesm wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's dangerously wrong. No, pedestrians do not have right of way over traffic everywhere inside cities in NL (though you could be forgiven to think it is that way by observing traffic). Pedestrians do have right of way inside 'woonerven'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woonerf Now, the fact that pedestrians do not have right of way does not mean cars are going to flatten people with impunity, of course every driver…

Probably "right to cross" would be a better term. What I'm getting at is pedestrians can cross the road in cities, without it considered jaywalking/illegal, and cars will generally just stop for them if they see them wanting to cross. Of course if you just jump into traffic in the last minute you'll be hit, and it will be on you. https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2017/09/05/when-there-is-...

You can cross if you are not within 30 meters of a zebra crossing. Crossing on a red traffic light is still considered jaywalking.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#199

Post by burfog »

skywhopper wrote: post #133
burfog wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NOTE: not specifically about jaywalking, but about fines/fees being disproportionate punishment in general Jail disproportionately punishes those who are working. (they lose their income source, then they can't pay bills, then their house gets foreclosed, etc.) Ditching punishment entirely means free-for-all anarchy until somebody takes that opportunity to impose a government with punishments. What options are left?…

You seem to be willfully misunderstanding the point. But I suspect that’s intentional. If you really think this, please do some reading on the subject of how court fees and small-scale civil violations and all the consequences of those things can lead to a vicious cycle of financial destruction for families on the edge of economic self sufficiency.

I'm not misunderstanding it. I'm saying there is no good solution here.

Feel free to propose a punishment that isn't disproportionate to somebody. I don't think such a punishment exists, aside from crazy edge cases like "do not enforce the law".

Go ahead. Try to make a suggestion that won't punish some people more than others.

In case it makes you feel any better about the system of fines, we can say that the disproportionate impact is itself a punishment for the lifestyle choices that lead to being poor. OK, that is awful, but it's some sort of justification.

Re: AI Mistakes Bus-Side Ad for Famous CEO, Charges Her With Jaywalking

#200

Post by coldtea »

wgerard wrote: post #195
NeedMoreTea wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was poor visibility for the driver, there's almost certainly poor visibility for the pedestrian too. Most are sensible enough to walk a little further to where they can get a bit better look at what traffic is coming. If I did hit someone at a visibility blind spot I'd expect to be shouted at by the cop too for not slowing down to a speed suitable for the visibility, and that the speed limit is a maximum sir…

Hah, fair enough! For some reason I'm imagining the worst-case scenario of a pedestrian completely oblivious to what's going on around them and just crossing without looking on a busy street, which I realize is pretty unlikely.

Yeah, that's not how it goes. If it does go that way (some people for example might have mental issues and go into the street, or be disoriented etc), it's not usually held up to the driver if they are hit, except if it's shown that they could have realistically prevented it.
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