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For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

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Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#101
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically in the US, it has been those in power pitting group against group like poor whites against slaves in this case (or one ethnic group versus another in other struggles with labor in the North during the same time period and afterwards), for the purpose of keeping those at the bottom occupied with an easily identified other, versus those with a lot more power and harder to reach. There were likely some fami…

>Historically in the US, it has been those in power pitting group against group like poor whites against slaves in this case (or one ethnic group versus another in other struggles with labor in the North during the same time period and afterwards), for the purpose of keeping those at the bottom occupied with an easily identified other, versus those with a lot more power and harder to reach. Yeah, I keep hearing this,…

It's all about hijacking natural human tribaliasm for your own ends imo.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#102
post #3

tldr; Thanksgiving was traditionally celebrated in the north, with "northern" food, and after it was made a national holiday by Lincoln the confederate states refused to acknowledge it. I'm curious about Native Americans though. A lot of their culture and resistance has been lost today, but back around the birth of the holiday I can imagine them finding it offensive and being vocal about it, if not due to politics an…

Realise that Thanksgiving as we have mythologized it today is entirely synthetic. There are only one or two sentences about it on the Pilgrim history, and those are sparse on facts. The traditional menu is one that happened to be served one year at Harvard. For some reason lost to history, it became the de facto traditional menu.

The menu differs so much by region, culture, and family that at this point it's honestly hard to describe any as a "de facto traditional menu."

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#103
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s Vacationed in Charleston a few months ago. Dropped into the Old Slave Mart Museum [1]. I learned something, there, that for the first time made the Civil War make sense (from the Southern perspective). Imagine a Southern plantation owner's balance sheet. What do you think woul…

Sure, that explains why the elites fought; what I still don't get was why the average white southern enlisted man fought. I mean, sure, it's clear why the elites wanted the war. But for the average white southern laborer, slavery did nothing but push down wages; It's hard to ask for a raise if the boss can just buy someone to do what you do. The explanations I've heard were nonsensical (that the average white souther…

> or assume the southerner was just... evil (the average white southern man fought so that there would at least be something below him.)

This gets down to Arendt's idea of the banality of evil: people who do bad things (usually) aren't mustache-twirling masterminds, they're otherwise "normal" people for whom the morally wrong course of action is either easier or more compelling (including for reasons of racial superiority). My opinion: we shouldn't privilege the word "evil" by associating it with some kind of deep instrospection leading to immoral action -- lots, if not most, of the evil in the world stems from mundane small-mindedness.

When you consider that the average white sharecropper in the antebellum South inherited both social and political structures that granted him legitimacy in contrast to black slaves, it makes sense that such a status suffices for supporting war -- it's a matter of identity.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#104

The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s. Something about still being bitter about the Civil War (which we were taught was not about slavery, but states rights, ugh).

> The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s Vacationed in Charleston a few months ago. Dropped into the Old Slave Mart Museum [1]. I learned something, there, that for the first time made the Civil War make sense (from the Southern perspective). Imagine a Southern plantation owner's balance sheet. What do you think woul…

Emancipation was an economic boon for the North. It was the right thing to do sure but it also meant a new cheap labor force for the Northern factories. Black people left the cotton fields of the South for slums in the North. But at least they got payed now and were free.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#105
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s Vacationed in Charleston a few months ago. Dropped into the Old Slave Mart Museum [1]. I learned something, there, that for the first time made the Civil War make sense (from the Southern perspective). Imagine a Southern plantation owner's balance sheet. What do you think woul…

Sure, that explains why the elites fought; what I still don't get was why the average white southern enlisted man fought. I mean, sure, it's clear why the elites wanted the war. But for the average white southern laborer, slavery did nothing but push down wages; It's hard to ask for a raise if the boss can just buy someone to do what you do. The explanations I've heard were nonsensical (that the average white souther…

The United States as we know it now didn't really exist. Every State in 1860 was basically a country with its own culture and history. The Civil War was instrumental in making the US into one country with one government. Before 1860 it was more a loosely held together alliance.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#106
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying it was about slavery is also misleading (although less so than just saying states rights). At the time the civil war started, the North was willing to compromise on the issue of slavery [0]. The North did not fight to abolish slavery. Had the South surrendered earlier (or never seceded at all), they would have been able to keep their slaves [1]. The reason the North fought was to preserve the union (apparently…

Secession was starting the war. You can't declare independence and expect a country not to respond. The southern states knew that secession was illegal and would bring about war. The Confederacy started the war in every important way, claiming anything else is revisionism.

This was not established law at the time of secession. Lincoln should have sued the seceding states to determine the legality of secession before beginning hostilities [0]. It was not established as law that leaving the union was illegal until 1869, when Texas argued in Texas V. White that secession was unconstitutional, and therefore the confederate legislature of Texas during the war was illegitimate. Therefore, the state still owned the bonds that it had (allegedly) sold to fund the war.

Further, Texas V. White was not a unamious decision. In the dissenting, Justice Grier wrote [1]:

>is Texas one of these United States? Or was she such at the time this bill was filed, or since?

>This is to be decided as a political fact, not as a legal fiction. This court is bound to know and notice the public history of the nation.

...

> I do not consider myself bound to express any opinion judicially as to the constitutional right of Texas to exercise the rights and privileges of a State of this Union

...

> I am not disposed to join in any essay to prove Texas to be a State of the Union when Congress have decided that she is not. It is a question of fact, I repeat, and of fact only. Politically, Texas is not a State in this Union. Whether rightfully out of it or not is a question not before the court.

This is reflective of a general political fact that sovereignty is not a legal question. Had the South won the war, we would not be having this arguement. It would be an undisputed fact that the Confederacy was a sovereign nation not subject to US law. It takes 2 sides to wage a war, and the North started the war because it found the South's political decision unacceptable [3]

Further, if we look at the post-war history, it was northern republicans who argued that secession was possible, as this is what allowed them to treat the former confederate states as conquered territory and therefore subject to direct congressional rule.

The southern Democrats (along with more moderate republicans) argued that secession was illegal, and therefore they were still full states in the Union, which would make laws such as the Reconstruction Acts [2] unconstitutional

[0] Not that it would have made any practical difference.

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/74/700#writing...

[2] As an unrelated matter, the North did repeal the Habeas Corpus Act 1867 in order to prevent the courts from ruling on the constitutionality of such reconstruction measures. Given the precedent set in Texas V. White, the southern states were likely correct that much of reconstruction was unconstitutional.

[3] That is not to say that the North was not justified in starting the war.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#107
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The North was willing to let the South keep slaves. Why then did the South feel it necessary to secede? A major grievance of the South was the North's failure to honor the fugitive slave act. Had the Northern states not exercised this right (weather they legally had it or not), we might not have had a civil war. Granted, I doubt this is what the South has in mind when citing State's rights as a justification.

>The North was willing to let the South keep slaves Source?

>I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time save Slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy Slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or destroy Slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about Slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save this Union, and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views. I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty, and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men, everywhere, could be free.

--Abraham Lincoln

https://www.nytimes.com/1862/08/24/archives/a-letter-from-pr...

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#108
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that explains why the elites fought; what I still don't get was why the average white southern enlisted man fought. I mean, sure, it's clear why the elites wanted the war. But for the average white southern laborer, slavery did nothing but push down wages; It's hard to ask for a raise if the boss can just buy someone to do what you do. The explanations I've heard were nonsensical (that the average white souther…

There's a quote (attributed without evidence to half a dozen prominent historical figures) that probably applies here: > Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.

I prefer the three great questions of American history,any two of which is the answer to the other two.

The frontier Slavery No socialism

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#109
post #64
post #38

Another obscure Thanksgiving fact: Thanksgiving is commonly known as a celebration of a good harvest, but the reason why the harvest was good is seldom remembered. Plymouth Colony was originally communal. Marx was far from the first to think that "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" might be a good idea. Such thinking dates back to Plato at least, and in 1620 the colony actually tried…

Please don't take this or any HN thread into ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Please stop censoring me. I've asked and made good arguments for each of my comments and you just ignore me. You are in the wrong dang; you are the censor.

Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression

#110
Dang's and HN's censorship is getting pretty disgusting. You're supposedly allowed to reply to comments with your support, but in reality that is a joke. They get killed before you can and then you cannot reply at all.

What's with the censorship of thanosnose's comment in this thread and many others? You just don't like his politics, dang? I've more than proven myself too - and I'm still shadow banned... We've had extensive emailing and I've offered plenty of proof that others have tried to support my previous comments that got me the shadow ban (which you ignored). I've also learned how many others have been banned too. We will support each other's right to not constantly make new accounts to voice basic, consistent, and evidence-supported opinions, dang! Absolutely ridiculous.

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