Earlier quoted context omitted.
Historically in the US, it has been those in power pitting group against group like poor whites against slaves in this case (or one ethnic group versus another in other struggles with labor in the North during the same time period and afterwards), for the purpose of keeping those at the bottom occupied with an easily identified other, versus those with a lot more power and harder to reach. There were likely some fami…
>Historically in the US, it has been those in power pitting group against group like poor whites against slaves in this case (or one ethnic group versus another in other struggles with labor in the North during the same time period and afterwards), for the purpose of keeping those at the bottom occupied with an easily identified other, versus those with a lot more power and harder to reach. Yeah, I keep hearing this,…
For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression
101–110 of 120 posts
Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression
#102tldr; Thanksgiving was traditionally celebrated in the north, with "northern" food, and after it was made a national holiday by Lincoln the confederate states refused to acknowledge it. I'm curious about Native Americans though. A lot of their culture and resistance has been lost today, but back around the birth of the holiday I can imagine them finding it offensive and being vocal about it, if not due to politics an…
Realise that Thanksgiving as we have mythologized it today is entirely synthetic. There are only one or two sentences about it on the Pilgrim history, and those are sparse on facts. The traditional menu is one that happened to be served one year at Harvard. For some reason lost to history, it became the de facto traditional menu.
Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression
#103Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s Vacationed in Charleston a few months ago. Dropped into the Old Slave Mart Museum [1]. I learned something, there, that for the first time made the Civil War make sense (from the Southern perspective). Imagine a Southern plantation owner's balance sheet. What do you think woul…
Sure, that explains why the elites fought; what I still don't get was why the average white southern enlisted man fought. I mean, sure, it's clear why the elites wanted the war. But for the average white southern laborer, slavery did nothing but push down wages; It's hard to ask for a raise if the boss can just buy someone to do what you do. The explanations I've heard were nonsensical (that the average white souther…
This gets down to Arendt's idea of the banality of evil: people who do bad things (usually) aren't mustache-twirling masterminds, they're otherwise "normal" people for whom the morally wrong course of action is either easier or more compelling (including for reasons of racial superiority). My opinion: we shouldn't privilege the word "evil" by associating it with some kind of deep instrospection leading to immoral action -- lots, if not most, of the evil in the world stems from mundane small-mindedness.
When you consider that the average white sharecropper in the antebellum South inherited both social and political structures that granted him legitimacy in contrast to black slaves, it makes sense that such a status suffices for supporting war -- it's a matter of identity.
Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression
#104The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s. Something about still being bitter about the Civil War (which we were taught was not about slavery, but states rights, ugh).
> The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s Vacationed in Charleston a few months ago. Dropped into the Old Slave Mart Museum [1]. I learned something, there, that for the first time made the Civil War make sense (from the Southern perspective). Imagine a Southern plantation owner's balance sheet. What do you think woul…
Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression
#105Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The Fourth of July wasn’t strongly celebrated until the 90s (after Gulf War I) in the small southern town I was living in during the 80s/90s Vacationed in Charleston a few months ago. Dropped into the Old Slave Mart Museum [1]. I learned something, there, that for the first time made the Civil War make sense (from the Southern perspective). Imagine a Southern plantation owner's balance sheet. What do you think woul…
Sure, that explains why the elites fought; what I still don't get was why the average white southern enlisted man fought. I mean, sure, it's clear why the elites wanted the war. But for the average white southern laborer, slavery did nothing but push down wages; It's hard to ask for a raise if the boss can just buy someone to do what you do. The explanations I've heard were nonsensical (that the average white souther…
Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression
#106Earlier quoted context omitted.
Saying it was about slavery is also misleading (although less so than just saying states rights). At the time the civil war started, the North was willing to compromise on the issue of slavery [0]. The North did not fight to abolish slavery. Had the South surrendered earlier (or never seceded at all), they would have been able to keep their slaves [1]. The reason the North fought was to preserve the union (apparently…
Secession was starting the war. You can't declare independence and expect a country not to respond. The southern states knew that secession was illegal and would bring about war. The Confederacy started the war in every important way, claiming anything else is revisionism.
Further, Texas V. White was not a unamious decision. In the dissenting, Justice Grier wrote [1]:
>is Texas one of these United States? Or was she such at the time this bill was filed, or since?
>This is to be decided as a political fact, not as a legal fiction. This court is bound to know and notice the public history of the nation.
...
> I do not consider myself bound to express any opinion judicially as to the constitutional right of Texas to exercise the rights and privileges of a State of this Union
...
> I am not disposed to join in any essay to prove Texas to be a State of the Union when Congress have decided that she is not. It is a question of fact, I repeat, and of fact only. Politically, Texas is not a State in this Union. Whether rightfully out of it or not is a question not before the court.
This is reflective of a general political fact that sovereignty is not a legal question. Had the South won the war, we would not be having this arguement. It would be an undisputed fact that the Confederacy was a sovereign nation not subject to US law. It takes 2 sides to wage a war, and the North started the war because it found the South's political decision unacceptable [3]
Further, if we look at the post-war history, it was northern republicans who argued that secession was possible, as this is what allowed them to treat the former confederate states as conquered territory and therefore subject to direct congressional rule.
The southern Democrats (along with more moderate republicans) argued that secession was illegal, and therefore they were still full states in the Union, which would make laws such as the Reconstruction Acts [2] unconstitutional
[0] Not that it would have made any practical difference.
[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/74/700#writing...
[2] As an unrelated matter, the North did repeal the Habeas Corpus Act 1867 in order to prevent the courts from ruling on the constitutionality of such reconstruction measures. Given the precedent set in Texas V. White, the southern states were likely correct that much of reconstruction was unconstitutional.
[3] That is not to say that the North was not justified in starting the war.
Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression
#107Earlier quoted context omitted.
The North was willing to let the South keep slaves. Why then did the South feel it necessary to secede? A major grievance of the South was the North's failure to honor the fugitive slave act. Had the Northern states not exercised this right (weather they legally had it or not), we might not have had a civil war. Granted, I doubt this is what the South has in mind when citing State's rights as a justification.
>The North was willing to let the South keep slaves Source?
--Abraham Lincoln
https://www.nytimes.com/1862/08/24/archives/a-letter-from-pr...
Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression
#108Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, that explains why the elites fought; what I still don't get was why the average white southern enlisted man fought. I mean, sure, it's clear why the elites wanted the war. But for the average white southern laborer, slavery did nothing but push down wages; It's hard to ask for a raise if the boss can just buy someone to do what you do. The explanations I've heard were nonsensical (that the average white souther…
There's a quote (attributed without evidence to half a dozen prominent historical figures) that probably applies here: > Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
The frontier Slavery No socialism
Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression
#109Another obscure Thanksgiving fact: Thanksgiving is commonly known as a celebration of a good harvest, but the reason why the harvest was good is seldom remembered. Plymouth Colony was originally communal. Marx was far from the first to think that "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" might be a good idea. Such thinking dates back to Plato at least, and in 1620 the colony actually tried…
Please don't take this or any HN thread into ideological flamewar. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Re: For Decades, Southern States Saw Thanksgiving as an Act of Northern Aggression
#110What's with the censorship of thanosnose's comment in this thread and many others? You just don't like his politics, dang? I've more than proven myself too - and I'm still shadow banned... We've had extensive emailing and I've offered plenty of proof that others have tried to support my previous comments that got me the shadow ban (which you ignored). I've also learned how many others have been banned too. We will support each other's right to not constantly make new accounts to voice basic, consistent, and evidence-supported opinions, dang! Absolutely ridiculous.