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What do you legally “own” with Bitcoin? A short introduction to krypto-property

prestonbyrne.com

21–30 of 36 posts

Re: What do you legally “own” with Bitcoin? A short introduction to krypto-property

#21
One section of this article is fairly accurate - a custodial holder of an asset (e.g. a bitcoin exchange) doesn't "own" the asset.

They have a contractual liability to the actual owner completely irrespective of any on-chain activity. It's not really even a "Bitcoin". The customer doesn't care whether they get the same Bitcoin back - they just want A Bitcoin and a legal agreement was specifically entered in to for safekeeping.

Outside of that, the majority of the article seems like someone external to a system trying to muscle their way in and exert authority over the participants in that system.

There already exists a mechanism to determine ownership in Bitcoin (e.g. "physical" Bitcoin, the cryptographic system).

A UTXO requires a puzzle to be solved in order for it to be released. This puzzle may or may not require the input of multiple parties.

The participants in that system accept this basis.

A court _cannot_ force a Bitcoin holder to give up their key except in specific cases with naive/bad key management. It is actually impossible to seize. Cooperation is required.

People can be locked in boxes, but a sole owner of a private key is the owner a priori because no legal title is required in order for them to maintain sole use.

It's literally the entire point of the system - if you revert to Men With Guns as the dispute mechanism then you may as well scrap the whole thing and use traditional banking.

Re: What do you legally “own” with Bitcoin? A short introduction to krypto-property

#23
post #22

Why does the question of ownability even arise? In my mind the purpose of property rights is to resolve conflicts over scarce resources. So what is the conflict with Bitcoin?

bitcoins introduce an artificial scarcity with its mining algorithm (there's only so much bitcoins out there)

Re: What do you legally “own” with Bitcoin? A short introduction to krypto-property

#24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point of such a transaction is that the courts _do not_ decide it. The construction was specifically designed such that the person who figures out the hash collision is the owner. The courts having rules to decide whom the coins belong is meaningless in that context. Who owns a Barbie doll? Is it Mummy, Daddy or the child? It's not a matter for courts to decide because the question is meaningless.

> The construction was specifically designed such that the person who figures out the hash collision is the owner... It's not a matter for courts to decide Anything is a matter for the courts to decide. Look up Popov v. Hayashi, where the courts tried to sort out who owned the ball that was Barry Bonds' 73rd home run. 2 guys caught it at more or less the same time. There was a dispute. The courts applied equitable pr…

In the specific situation of petertodd's transaction, the blockchain will resolve the first solution as the owner.

There is actually a technical flaw in those transactions in that a miner that is aware would just rewrite the receive address to their own as there's no signature.

But ultimately a confirmation will hit the chain and transfer ownership of the UTXO.

It's already a solved problem. This is literally the entire point of Bitcoin - decentralized consensus without need for trusted third parties.

Courts cannot move Bitcoin from address A to B. They simply do not have the power. They can muscle in and lock people in boxes and stuff but the actual coins cannot be seized because of the nature of the system.

Re: What do you legally “own” with Bitcoin? A short introduction to krypto-property

#26
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bingo. This is the sort of scenario for which the courts don't currently have rules to decide to whom the coins (qua krypto-property) should belong.

The entire point of such a transaction is that the courts _do not_ decide it. The construction was specifically designed such that the person who figures out the hash collision is the owner. The courts having rules to decide whom the coins belong is meaningless in that context. Who owns a Barbie doll? Is it Mummy, Daddy or the child? It's not a matter for courts to decide because the question is meaningless.

Ownership is a legal concept, and thus it's up to the legal system to decide if "the person who figures out the hash collision is the owner", or if in certain cases it's not.

Yes, it may be hard to enforce a judgement, especially if the other party can't be identified or located. However, if the other party is reachable, then the courts can certainly force that person to, for example, reverse the transactions, or compensate the rightful owner (as determined by courts, not the algorithms), or have their stuff and liberty taken away by angry armed men.

The process was designed so that the person who figures out the hash collision has full de-facto control, but the designers of a cryptocurrency have no say in what the rules for legal ownership are, that's up to the legislators - and just as for many existing (including physical things) having full control does not imply ownership, i.e. the right to freely act with that thing without it being forcibly taken away, and the right to have your property protected by the state if someone (including someone who has the key) takes your property.

Re: What do you legally “own” with Bitcoin? A short introduction to krypto-property

#27
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The construction was specifically designed such that the person who figures out the hash collision is the owner... It's not a matter for courts to decide Anything is a matter for the courts to decide. Look up Popov v. Hayashi, where the courts tried to sort out who owned the ball that was Barry Bonds' 73rd home run. 2 guys caught it at more or less the same time. There was a dispute. The courts applied equitable pr…

In the specific situation of petertodd's transaction, the blockchain will resolve the first solution as the owner. There is actually a technical flaw in those transactions in that a miner that is aware would just rewrite the receive address to their own as there's no signature. But ultimately a confirmation will hit the chain and transfer ownership of the UTXO. It's already a solved problem. This is literally the ent…

Sure, courts cannot freely move Bitcoin from address A to B, but that's not really relevant. The relevant part of ownership in this context is whether moving Bitcoin from address A to B was legal, i.e. did you have the ("ownership") right to act with that Bitcoin? And the answer sometimes may be "no", even if you had the key (which you obviously did, if you made the transaction); the question "whether that transaction was fraudulent, did you commit a crime by making it" depends on who legally owned these Bitcoin, not on who knew the keys.

And in many cases courts can move Bitcoin, and have done so - hardware can be seized, people forced to reveal passwords, and Bitcoin transactions executed. For example, see the multiple auctions of seized Bitcoin by U.S. Marshals Service. They can't be guaranteed to succeed, but that's nothing new (it's not like stolen goods or cash always get recovered), and they certainly can try.

If someone steals something edible and eats it, courts also can't return that thing back to the owner, it doesn't mean that edible things are owned by whoever eats them. In both such cases, the courts can order (and, as much as possible, force) the culprit to compensate the rightful owner - but it matters who the rightful owner (in the opinion of the court) is, so it is meaningful to debate who owned it.

Re: What do you legally “own” with Bitcoin? A short introduction to krypto-property

#28
Bitcoin in essence is not digital. If we could remember as good as hard-drivers, calculate as fast and consistently as CPUs, and perhaps communicate as efficiently as bits travel over the internet, Bitcoin would run in our minds only. And it would run for real.

Therefore, the only actually physical attachment it must have is ourselves, our minds, and (any) communication channels.

Bitcoin being mental before digital (I see digitization as just making it more practical), we surround the "owning question": do we own other peoples bodys or minds? Nope, we don't.

So Bitcoin is not, even remotely, private property.

Re: What do you legally “own” with Bitcoin? A short introduction to krypto-property

#29

I had to do a lot of research to understand this in a technical sense. (I haven't read the article OP linked.) I found the answer really interesting: with bitcoin, what you actually own in a technical sense is the cryptographic signature of an output of a previous transaction on the blockchain. "Owning 10 bitcoin" is intrinsically identical to "owning the cryptographic keys to a previous transaction whose value was 1…

The system doesn't really considers ownership. All participants could, individually but all, simply follow the rule (R):

"this 'address' (x) actually won't spend anything, ever".

Since participants are actually free to move into that rule, that x "owner" (person X) never owned btc.

Person X can't say he was "disowned"/"robbed"/"stolen". Each participants is free to do whatever they want with their computers (they could, individually, even shut it down completely - so everyone could actually shut it down at the same time and no one ever come back).

If Person X is to "actually own" bitcoins, then he (or someone) owns every participants computers, so this owner could state (or enforce) the rule "you shall not move into rule R" (because you would be disowning person X without X's permission, which would be aggression and be unjust).

So knowing a private key "just happens" to interact with each blockchain on the participants computers. They "just happen" to not ignore that information, and interact to it in a certain way. We, in practice, consider the filters the participants decides to apply as having the effect of simulating ownership. But Bitcoins are not actually owned by anyone.

Re: What do you legally “own” with Bitcoin? A short introduction to krypto-property

#30
post #22

Why does the question of ownability even arise? In my mind the purpose of property rights is to resolve conflicts over scarce resources. So what is the conflict with Bitcoin?

Conflicts such as government arresting you for "owning cryptos". Or not reporting you "own cryptos".

But it's also pretty far from other known forms of money. It's certainly an opportunity for new philosophical/economical insights.

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