Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

independent.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 271 posts

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#261

Post by tekknik »

johnchristopher wrote: post #224
Just_Smith wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious - why do you think a centralized system would be superior to a decentralized system? That would allow the norm to be dictated by the central authority, and not through public consensus.

Sorry, there is a misunderstanding. It's the other way around. I believe the black mirror system is more efficient to establish social control and is more perverse because everyone is policing it, watching you and reporting you. It's the real nature of big brother (what I remember from the book): everyone is big brother in the end and there's no escape. Our life would be worse in a black mirror system than in a Chine…

are you sure about that? with hive mind mentality both are essentially a single entity working against you.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#262

Post by tekknik »

will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

how does your worthiness to repay a loan equate to a social eating system? your statements seem to say that those with a history of an inability to pay loans back should continue to get loans and screw the originator? also which jobs can you not get because of bad credit? i’ve personally never seen or heard of one

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#263

Post by TangoTrotFox »

jhanschoo wrote: post #238
TangoTrotFox wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has gone from an undeveloped nation where people were literally starving to death by the tens of millions, to one of the most powerful and economically successful nations in the world. And they did this all in less than a single human lifetime. This trajectory of success is unlike anything we've seen anytime in human history excluding growth from military expansion. They're greatly outpacing the United States'…

I am more hesitant to attribute this success to the success of their government system. After all, when the government exhibited more totalitarian control, tragedies like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution occurred, that killed a generation of progress and more. It was after Deng's restructuring and China's opening up of its markets that it saw unprecedented growth. But what I'm seeing right now is to…

I'd debate the degree to which China opened its markets, but that's an aside -- I mostly agree with you in theory. But there's one nagging issue. Countless other developing nations that have done things such as open their markets and have had nowhere near the success to show for it that China has.

I think unforeseen consequences, both negative and positive, are a major part of how societies develop. We in general have nowhere near the foresight we like to image we do. And in particular, I'm more inclined to attribute China's success to their systems in large part because the only thing as large an outlier as their success is their governmental system. And the timing also fits quite well. If it's just e.g. open markets then it leaves you having to explain why China is thriving whereas most other developing nations following the WTO playbook have relatively little to show for it.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#264

Post by exolymph »

Just_Smith wrote: post #246
rubyfan wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those deposits are just that, deposits - you get those back. They are in lieu of a credit report. The ability for utilities, property owners and other institutions to provide services and goods that people might choose not to pay for is in fact _enabled_ by the credit system. It’s not your God given right to access these services. The credit system enables many people to leverage their recorded credit history without…

I'm not criticizing the existence of deposits, but increasing the size of deposits for high-risk customers is without a doubt a cash-grab on the poor. Deposits exist to protect the issuer of the property from a potential delinquency. When it comes to turning off someones power, the cost is fairly the same (and the cost of travel certainly doesn't increase by a fibonacci-esque rate). Plus, I wasn't living beyond my me…

At any level of expenditure you can get a credit card (products targeted to people with no credit exist!) and pay it off like clockwork on a monthly basis. Which builds good credit. You could use it to spend $5 and still do this.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#265

Post by exolymph »

will_brown wrote: post #160
lifeformed wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. The credit system has a lot of issues but it just does what it says on the tin, measuring the same credit card metrics, and had been around for a while without much change. The social rating system seeps into every aspect of a person's life and had no limits for expansion.…

>I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. You want to work here? We are going to have to check your credit! Which system is it? You’re born poor and apply for your first job, a nice government job with nice government benefits, but can’t get it because you don’t have any credit established. Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to…

> Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to the check cashing/cash advance store.

How do you think bank accounts, minimum wage jobs, or check-cashing places work? Do you think they check your credit before you can access them? Some jobs do, sure, but not all, and you can absolutely deposit money or cash a check without having established credit.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#266

Post by nswest23 »

Shivetya wrote: post #88
kylnew wrote: post #5

> People are awarded credit points for activities such as undertaking volunteer work and giving blood donations while those who violate traffic laws and charge “under-the-table” fees are punished. > Other infractions reportedly include smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online. This reminds me a lot of that Black Mirror episode where everyone upvotes and downvotes each oth…

soon China will go straight to Larry Niven's The Jigsaw Man [1] where sentences for crimes include forced donation of all organs. this includes traffic offenses and the like. On a different tact, the US is just as guilty of this with the over the top of punishment of those convicted of sex crimes where you can be publicly embarrassed by law enforcement after you served your time. Where you can be told where you can l…

holy smokes false equivalencies!

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#268

Post by jhanschoo »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #263
jhanschoo wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am more hesitant to attribute this success to the success of their government system. After all, when the government exhibited more totalitarian control, tragedies like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution occurred, that killed a generation of progress and more. It was after Deng's restructuring and China's opening up of its markets that it saw unprecedented growth. But what I'm seeing right now is to…

I'd debate the degree to which China opened its markets, but that's an aside -- I mostly agree with you in theory. But there's one nagging issue. Countless other developing nations that have done things such as open their markets and have had nowhere near the success to show for it that China has. I think unforeseen consequences, both negative and positive, are a major part of how societies develop. We in general hav…

IMO China's success is quite belated. Much of the world was recovering from WWII with booming economies, and Asian economies especially saw rapid growth, hence the four Asian tigers as well. To the CCP's credit, they have managed to hold China together and given it stability when many have tried and failed for a century, and this I think is the greatest reason for China's success.

It's not possible to identify a unifying thread among countries that try to follow the WTO playbook that fail. Some fail because a totalitarian minority control a valuable natural resource. Some fail because of irreconcilable differences between nations (races) sharing the same political state. Still there are many other reasons.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#269

Post by Juliate »

paraditedc wrote: post #255
Juliate wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But please don't be too proud either. China is a great country, you're a great people. As we all are. All humans. Qualities. Defaults. History. You're not _that_ exceptional either. We don't criticize China. Neither you. We criticize the very idea of automation of social credit (thus of social relations, and individual freedom, and life), because our parents and grandparents had to experiment with it, and its consequ…

I guess you are referencing Nazi? Without going into a history lesson, let me just point out that China fought against Germany in both WW1 and WW2. So our parents and grandparents do have some ideas of experiments and consequences.

> I guess you are referencing Nazi?

Nope. Not everything totalitarian that happened in Europe in the past century was about nazism. Far from that.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#270

Post by johnchristopher »

tekknik wrote: post #261
johnchristopher wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, there is a misunderstanding. It's the other way around. I believe the black mirror system is more efficient to establish social control and is more perverse because everyone is policing it, watching you and reporting you. It's the real nature of big brother (what I remember from the book): everyone is big brother in the end and there's no escape. Our life would be worse in a black mirror system than in a Chine…

are you sure about that? with hive mind mentality both are essentially a single entity working against you.

One of the option is self-regulated, the other is not. That last one conjures up a single entity you can identify yourself against. You can antagonize it, fight it. The first one doesn't give you that anchor.
Post reply on HN