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China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

independent.co.uk

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Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#231

Post by xenomachina »

bitexploder wrote: post #46
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

> The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit.

When I first moved to the US it was not possible for me to have any (US) credit. I had good credit in Canada, but that was mostly by accident (I had a credit card that I rarely used -- I didn't really need one in university) and it turns out that Canadian credit doesn't translate into US credit.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#232

Post by apatters »

wozmirek wrote: post #128

While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer. This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)? Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't bl…

How do you know she was telling the truth? If she criticizes the system too much she'll lose credit and be blacklisted from booking flights etc.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#233

Post by ryanwaggoner »

will_brown wrote: post #209
simonh wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moment I saw the headline I just knew there’d be a “it’s just as bad over here” post in the thread somewhere. Thanks for not disappointing me. There are different ways to approach this though. There’s “what China is doing is no big deal, we do it all as well so why are we hypocritically making a fuss?”. Then there’s “this is appalling and should be condemned absolutely, but let’s be careful here because we’re alr…

Well in general yes, these types of articles will have comments for, against and comparative in nature. Not to burst your bubble, but I don’t think my comment is saying it’s just as bad here, only encouragement to do a comparative analysis of the two systems. Maybe one is worse/better in terms of scale but dystopian systems are dystopian systems notwithstanding the scale. Anyway you are obviously entitled to your opi…

I read your comment the same way: lazy whataboutism to handwave human rights abuses because “we’re just as bad”. You literally said “it’s just another way to skin the cat”, and implied that we should figure our stuff out before criticism of China here.

Fortunately, people with influence don’t share your view, or our lack of perfection would keep us from ever calling out authoritarian regimes for their abuses, no matter how horrific.

Gassing millions of people? Eh, we killed some people in targeted drone strikes, who are we to judge?

Ridiculous.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#235

Post by will_brown »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #233
will_brown wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in general yes, these types of articles will have comments for, against and comparative in nature. Not to burst your bubble, but I don’t think my comment is saying it’s just as bad here, only encouragement to do a comparative analysis of the two systems. Maybe one is worse/better in terms of scale but dystopian systems are dystopian systems notwithstanding the scale. Anyway you are obviously entitled to your opi…

I read your comment the same way: lazy whataboutism to handwave human rights abuses because “we’re just as bad”. You literally said “it’s just another way to skin the cat”, and implied that we should figure our stuff out before criticism of China here. Fortunately, people with influence don’t share your view, or our lack of perfection would keep us from ever calling out authoritarian regimes for their abuses, no matt…

>... or our lack of perfection would keep us from ever calling out authoritarian regimes for their abuses, no matter how horrific.

Sounds like the same lazy whataboutism...ignoring our own human rights abuses to highlight others? Seems like calling a comparative analysis a lazy whataboutism, while using a whataboutism arguement is intellectually dishonest.

But I think your point about gassing people is helpful here, because you are refernicing genocide. Wouldn’t you agree whether Sudan or the Holocaust, both are examples of genocide? That we don’t ignore Sudan simply because the scale isn’t the same, and it’s not whataboutism to discuss both in the context of genocide? I think the same applies to dystopian systems, you either are or aren’t, and scale is a different discussion or arguing better/worse is pretty silly at that point.

Bringing one up in the context of the other isn’t whataboutism or handwaiving forgiveness, now if I brought up our system to forgive China’s system, then I think that is fairly called a whataboutism argument. But I think it’s clear I’m calling them both dystopian systems, and didn’t even touch on one being better/worse than the other.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#236

Post by tivert »

methodover wrote: post #197

This may sound like a stupid question, but did the Chinese people vote for this? Was there a democratic process?

> This may sound like a stupid question, but did the Chinese people vote for this? Was there a democratic process?

Of course not.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/20/world/asia/chinas-new-lea...

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#237

Post by rubyfan »

will_brown wrote: post #220
rubyfan wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lease agreements typically entitle one to a property for a fixed period for financially agreed terms. It’s incredibly hard to evict a bad tenant. One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. An understanding of ones debt to income ratio is also useful in predicting their future ability to hold up their end of the lease. It’s actually a completely reasonable use of credit report.

>One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. And I’m sure China could easily argue prior social behavior is a huge predictor of future social behavior. But the real problem in the US is you have an entire class of people who have no credit history (the poor), not bad credit history, but no credit history. You aren’t wrong if I’m lending money I’d want to know debt to income ratio, but why does…

You can argue about the side effects or extended uses of credit reporting all you like I suppose. The reality of the credit system in the US is not a government driven activity. The market has created a behavior incentive to pay your bills and that’s one most are happy to live with. By contrast I can chose to disagree with whatever social campaign the government wants to dream up yet still operate as a private citizen. I am free to disagree without harming my ability to rent, take a loan or board an airplane. In a government centralized behavioral rating system you are beholden to the arbitrary rules of a political bureaucracy. Today it’s stopping at traffic lights, tomorrow video games, the next day alcohol consumption, oh and you get extra points if you showed up to cheer for the political party in power...

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#238

Post by jhanschoo »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #202
PavlovsCat wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no idea whether the Chinese system of government is a good idea or an idea that will lead to the implosion of their society. So if it doesn't implode, that makes it a good idea?

China has gone from an undeveloped nation where people were literally starving to death by the tens of millions, to one of the most powerful and economically successful nations in the world. And they did this all in less than a single human lifetime. This trajectory of success is unlike anything we've seen anytime in human history excluding growth from military expansion. They're greatly outpacing the United States'…

I am more hesitant to attribute this success to the success of their government system. After all, when the government exhibited more totalitarian control, tragedies like the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution occurred, that killed a generation of progress and more. It was after Deng's restructuring and China's opening up of its markets that it saw unprecedented growth. But what I'm seeing right now is totalitarian elements being reintroduced into governance---thus I don't share your unbridled faith that there is something essentially right with China's current governance.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#239

Post by rubyfan »

Just_Smith wrote: post #227
will_brown wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. And I’m sure China could easily argue prior social behavior is a huge predictor of future social behavior. But the real problem in the US is you have an entire class of people who have no credit history (the poor), not bad credit history, but no credit history. You aren’t wrong if I’m lending money I’d want to know debt to income ratio, but why does…

To elaborate on your point a little further, because I think a lot of people truly don't understand this: having no credit is worse than having bad credit, so the argument that being conservative with your finances is all you need is blatantly wrong and tone-deaf. My first apartment cost me $500/mo. The deposit to turn on power was $100, $300, and $500 for good, bad, and no credit respectively. I had no credit, becau…

Those deposits are just that, deposits - you get those back. They are in lieu of a credit report. The ability for utilities, property owners and other institutions to provide services and goods that people might choose not to pay for is in fact _enabled_ by the credit system. It’s not your God given right to access these services. The credit system enables many people to leverage their recorded credit history without putting up capital in the form of deposit. It’s actually a _social good_ that puts better liquidity into the system and provides access.

Also regarding building credit, don’t spend beyond your means and you’ll be OK. Many people use credit cards for perks and rewards and pay their bill off at the end of the month. No one is forcing you to spend beyond your means.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#240

Post by cloverich »

dnomad wrote: post #132
skrebbel wrote: post #113

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem. So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK? George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human f…

> China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name. This is such complete nonsense. I think it's hilarious how totally and completely misguided about China that Westerners, and Americans in particular, actually are. It boggles the belief just how much complete nonsense is spouted her…

> Social credit is extremely popular in China [1]. The social credit system is also not new.

Slavery was once popular in America, and as a system was not new. It was hugely beneficial to a segment of the population. Would you be pro slavery because of those arguments?

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