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Going to university does not broaden the mind

economist.com

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Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#251

Post by all2 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #101
akvadrako wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't make sense. Slavery is obviously a particularly bad form of taxation.

I hope you are trying to be funny.

This isn't funny. I'd argue that it is true, though. Taxation, as an idea, is simply the idea of taking something from someone 'for the common welfare' (ie, other people's well being).

Taking everything, including choice, (in essence slavery) could be called a 'tax' using the above definition.

To compare taxes (as they are presently levied against any first world population) to slavery is quite a stretch, though.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#252

Post by scarface74 »

geomark wrote: post #236
AsyncAwait wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I always chuckle when I hear about "free" education, "free" healthcare, etc. Somebody is paying for it. That's because you probably choose to misinterpret what is meant. If you genuinely don't know, I find this quite astonishing, but let me explain; As someone with "free" healthcare as a citizen of an EU country, I never think it is free as in literally costs nothing and nor do my left-wing American friends advocat…

I suppose you might convince yourself to think of it that way. As long as you don't mind the fact that you are subsidizing the large number of people for whom it is literally free because they pay but a tiny portion of their actual cost. A certain amount of that would be fine with me since I do feel a duty to support the less fortunate, although being forced to do it and having it done by a large and inefficient bure…

You’ve been paying for healthcare for the uninsured forever - just inefficiently.

Hospitals are required to treat anyone who comes in to stabilize them - you pay for that through some combination of higher insurance if you are insured - the hospital jacks up prices - or some cities fund the hospitals.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#253

Post by scarface74 »

em-bee wrote: post #224
AnaniasAnanas wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30k euro per year here. I am now finishing my 4th year abroad. It is easier than you think even if you do not stop unnecessary expenses. I believe that universities should not teach marketable skills only because these are what some employers like - instead they should teach skills that are not trivial to learn by yourself (some of which might be marketable). If you have already learned Python in uni for example ther…

actually, the most important thing to teach, which not all schools are teaching is "how to learn" for example teaching multiple programming languages has the benefit of learning how the languages are related to each other. a student that learned several languages over the course of their studies will be much better at picking up yet another language when they start working. in my university each different programming…

Wouldn’t it be better instead of learning a ton of languages, to learn how to “engineer” systems? By that I mean, learning how to build and manage complex projects?

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#254

Post by someguydave »

WalterBright wrote: post #137
someguydave wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? What if it is entered into voluntarily?

Your rights are inalienable. This means that you cannot transfer them, even voluntarily. They remain your rights. Slave contracts are worthless for this reason.

Who defines which rights you have and which ones are inalienable?

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#255

Post by scarface74 »

jeena wrote: post #193
badpun wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah. Our numerical methods professor once remarked during a lecture that programming is a technician’s job and if we want to just learn it, we should be be in a vocational school, not in univeristy learning CS. He was not wrong IMO.

The supervisor of our bachelor thesis said something similar, interestingly he was Pakistani and said "Sure you can try to program this thing as your thesis, or you could do something more stimulating like research of this topic. The implementation you should give to some Indian programmers, they are far better, faster and cheaper in it than you guys anyway." And as racist ad bad it sounds, now a couple of years late…

I don’t disagree. But you have to start somewhere. I’ve seen so many computer science majors who couldn’t get their foot in the door because they knew “theory” but couldn’t compete with developers from other countries that actually focused on learning what they needed to get a job, had experience and they are willing to work for less.

Of course that’s not meant to be a knock against them. I agree with them.

Yes in theory, I’m a “developer”, but I don’t compete in the market by studying leetCode and algorithms. I compete by being able to discuss architecture.

I’m actually in the weird position that half my learning agenda for 2019 is getting caught up on the cool kids front end frameworks of the week. I’ve been focused so much on higher level “architectural theory” and the back end for the last few years, I haven’t been keeping up on the front end. It’s weird because yeah, I make more than most “full stack developers” in my market, but if I had to get a job tomorrow, I don’t have the table stakes to outcompete a developer with four years of experience when a company wants someone that can hit the ground running now. Especially if they are looking for contractors.

Sure, I am qualified for an over paid “digital transformation consultant”, “cloud consultant” type of role, but those aren’t as plentiful.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#256

Post by mclehman »

WalterBright wrote: post #131
analog31 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would actually surprise me if any university had the ability to impose an overall bias in one of those directions over the other. There would seem to be too much variation among the individual professors, teachers, students, etc. Anecdotally, I live in the shadow of a Big Ten university, so I know a lot of academics, and I don't think any of them have expressed a "follow the rules" approach that I was able to disc…

I don't know about any university, but at Caltech it was consistent that everything used was derived from first principles. There wasn't any "trust me, use this rule".

That wasn't consistent at my school, but classes that did derive everything from first principles were consistently the best ones.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#257

Post by Aloha »

thegeomaster wrote: post #158
Aloha wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because everyone isn't as smart as you are, and with the elimination of many jobs at the bottom of the economy we no longer have a good way to ensure the pie of wealth us equitably divided.

But looking at it as a pie that needs to be divided is wrong. One of the core tenets of capitalism (well, in theory) is that wealth is created literally from nothing. It's not a zero-sum game. In practice, unfortunately, one needs certain prerequisites to be able to do this. So in my view, the problem is not that something is unequally divided, but that a class of people systematically aren't able to create enough we…

I'm not talking about equality, but rather equitablity - the system should be fairer than it is, meaning people ought to be compensated fairly for the value they contribute to the system, the issue is, they're not.

My beliefs on sharing the pie are summed up by the following quote "life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone, with opportunity for each according to ability or achievement" the issue is, we've systematically deprived those of lower ability of paths to opportunity, and deprived those who do succeed of their fair share of the pie.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#258

Post by finnthehuman »

jedberg wrote: post #92

University definitely broadened my mind. I grew up in an area that was 99+% white and 50+% Jewish. We literally had “the black family” with twins who were our top track stars. And a few Asian families who hid their Asianness. It was at University that I learned about Asian culture. It was the first time I used chopsticks. It was the first time I drank tea without sugar. It was the first time I ate Chinese food that w…

I wouldn't describe the cliche post-highschool hard left swing of someone with a sheltered upbringing as "broadening".

I don't mean to be too dismissive, but I spent enough time in a university town after my own graduation to see this trajectory play out a number of times. Kids come in, and adopt a new set of ideas that suit their new environment just as blindly as they adopted ideas compatible with their previous environment.

Before I make it sound too much like I'm painting with a broad brush, I expect people's political positions to change around this time. There is a difference between a position someone can articulate from their first principles, and someone that sounds like they're repeating the media they picked those positions up from. I'd rather have a productive disagreement than talk to someone I agree with that can't show their thought process.

Eventually they might have their mind broadened. But it's not guaranteed. And if they discover pot when they got to the university and/or internalize their change of heart as a 2nd rebellion against their parents, it'll take a few extra years.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#259

Post by Aloha »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #223
Aloha wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not privilege, privilege makes it easier, but it's certainly not impossible without it - unless you count things like intelligence and personality to be privilege. That said, a certain subset of the population doesn't have the wherewithal, drive or ability to do it - and for an even smaller, the best in life they can hope for is to perform some sort of manual labor. We mustn't forget about the self selection bia…

> It's not privilege, privilege makes it easier, but it's certainly not impossible without it. No, but it is much, much harder. Assuming all human beings are equal, how can you justify working a lot harder for the same outcome? As an example, we generally want to help the disabled, it is generally a good policy to remove barriers, install lifts etc. not for them to 'just learn to walk properly' or whatever.

> No, but it is much, much harder. Assuming all human beings are equal, how can you justify working a lot harder for the same outcome?

I can't, that's my point we need to provide good opportunities for people of all abilities, not just for the smartest, we're failing at this goal.

I want a more just and equitable society not necessarily just an equal one.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#260

Post by jon_richards »

finnthehuman wrote: post #258
jedberg wrote: post #92

University definitely broadened my mind. I grew up in an area that was 99+% white and 50+% Jewish. We literally had “the black family” with twins who were our top track stars. And a few Asian families who hid their Asianness. It was at University that I learned about Asian culture. It was the first time I used chopsticks. It was the first time I drank tea without sugar. It was the first time I ate Chinese food that w…

I wouldn't describe the cliche post-highschool hard left swing of someone with a sheltered upbringing as "broadening". I don't mean to be too dismissive, but I spent enough time in a university town after my own graduation to see this trajectory play out a number of times. Kids come in, and adopt a new set of ideas that suit their new environment just as blindly as they adopted ideas compatible with their previous en…

99% of his post is about learning new things.

>hard left swing

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