Going to university does not broaden the mind • Hacker News Board

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#221

Post by em-bee » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:55 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #175

eigenvector wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. I definitely feel where you're coming from. When I was in university I marvelled at the kids studying liberal arts. I thought it was a crazy extravagance to spend 4+ years and tens of thousands of dollars on something that had no evident financial return. At least I was getting an engineering degree that would pay the bills someday and I thought of the arts kids as subsisting on handouts from their afflue…

Nothing is ever “free”. How are you going to convince the middle class family to subsidize someone else’s “liberal arts” degree when that family is struggling themselves? Why should my taxes go toward paying someone else’s overpriced tutition? I graduated from high school and went to the local state college, stayed at home, and three years after graduating, I was making just as much as people sitting beside me who we…

they aren't the ones financing it because those that struggle to make ends meet are paying much less taxes than those with better income.

and with what little they do contribute, their own kids too get the opportunity to go to university.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#222

Post by fwn » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:57 AM UTC

tmh88j wrote: post #20

cm2012 wrote: post #12

I wish this was more common knowledge.

Is going to university to "broaden the mind" a common sentiment? Maybe that's a European thing, because the mindset in the US is that college is a step towards a good career, which unfortunately doesn't seem to hold as much weight these days for a growing number of fields.

> Is going to university to "broaden the mind" a common sentiment?

Yes, actually! This might be a good link to read more about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humboldtian_model_of_higher_ed...

The individual development those thinkers had in mind wasn't what the study tested, though, since "broadening the mind" isn't necessarily about personality tests. But I see that this is an attractive over interpretation of the results from a publishing perspective.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#223

Post by AsyncAwait » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 11:58 AM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #132

jedberg wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because not everyone is born into the privilege necessary to “pull up their own bootstraps”. In fact it was on college that I learned a lot about libertarianism, and was a strong believer in pure capitolisim. As I’ve aged I’ve realized that it just doesn’t work.

It's not privilege, privilege makes it easier, but it's certainly not impossible without it - unless you count things like intelligence and personality to be privilege. That said, a certain subset of the population doesn't have the wherewithal, drive or ability to do it - and for an even smaller, the best in life they can hope for is to perform some sort of manual labor. We mustn't forget about the self selection bia…

> It's not privilege, privilege makes it easier, but it's certainly not impossible without it.

No, but it is much, much harder. Assuming all human beings are equal, how can you justify working a lot harder for the same outcome?

As an example, we generally want to help the disabled, it is generally a good policy to remove barriers, install lifts etc. not for them to 'just learn to walk properly' or whatever.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#224

Post by em-bee » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 12:09 PM UTC

AnaniasAnanas wrote: post #202

scarface74 wrote: post #120

Only the privileged can afford to go to college to “broaden their mind”. Most people go to college to compete in the market and get a job. It’s amazing how much push back I get about computer science degrees should teach marketable skills and people say they weren’t meant to be ”vocational degrees” and you shouldn’t go to college for “job training”. Just the idea that people are suggesting in some of the comments tha…

30k euro per year here. I am now finishing my 4th year abroad. It is easier than you think even if you do not stop unnecessary expenses. I believe that universities should not teach marketable skills only because these are what some employers like - instead they should teach skills that are not trivial to learn by yourself (some of which might be marketable). If you have already learned Python in uni for example ther…

actually, the most important thing to teach, which not all schools are teaching is "how to learn"

for example teaching multiple programming languages has the benefit of learning how the languages are related to each other. a student that learned several languages over the course of their studies will be much better at picking up yet another language when they start working.

in my university each different programming concept was taught with a different language. object orientation with modula, functional programming with scheme, etc. we pretty much learned a new language every term.

and the point was not to learn those languages. that just happened as an aside. but that aside produced the benefit of making the students comfortable working with whatever language the job might require.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#225

Post by oldboyFX » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 12:09 PM UTC

devxpy wrote: post #157

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are social programs necessary?

Its in my opinion that people don't use the computer properly. There's very little you gain from social programs that you can't gain if you watch the right kind of content, read the right kind of articles, and just talk to people. I've met far more smart people on the internet than I could ever meet in real life. In fact most people I meet in real life are stupid.

> In fact most people I meet in real life are stupid.

I've also felt like this for a long time before I grew up.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#226

Post by AsyncAwait » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 12:09 PM UTC

geomark wrote: post #209

scarface74 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing is ever “free”. How are you going to convince the middle class family to subsidize someone else’s “liberal arts” degree when that family is struggling themselves? Why should my taxes go toward paying someone else’s overpriced tutition? I graduated from high school and went to the local state college, stayed at home, and three years after graduating, I was making just as much as people sitting beside me who we…

Of course you are correct, it's not "free". I always chuckle when I hear about "free" education, "free" healthcare, etc. Somebody is paying for it. It might not be you, at least not at this moment. But if you ever make any money you will be paying for someone else's education. And maybe you are ok with that, improving society and all, assuming you believe what they are learning in university actually does that.

> I always chuckle when I hear about "free" education, "free" healthcare, etc. Somebody is paying for it.

That's because you probably choose to misinterpret what is meant. If you genuinely don't know, I find this quite astonishing, but let me explain; As someone with "free" healthcare as a citizen of an EU country, I never think it is free as in literally costs nothing and nor do my left-wing American friends advocating for "free". It's "free" at the point of use, paid via our tax dollars, to which I contribute.

The U.S. spends more on its current healthcare than the "free" one would cost them.

You can think of "free" healthcare as giving you freedom from being sick, rather than in terms of cost.

Would you rather spend money on "free" healthcare or tanks? Because it's going to be one of these.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#227

Post by aj_g » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 12:10 PM UTC

happertiger wrote: post #68

yosito wrote: post #50

For those interested in broadening their minds, I highly recommend living in a country other than the one you were born in for at least a year. Preferably one with a different language than your first language. It's pretty hard to do that while still hanging on to your narrow mindset. I work remotely and I've had the privilege of being able to live internationally since 2012. But even if you don't work remotely there…

I really think the US should require all college grads to spend a year overseas in a country that speaks a different language. I got an education and then I got a real education from travel myself.

100% this. I studied abroad in Istanbul, and when I was there I was blown away at how normal it was to either study abroad, study abroad multiple times or take a gap year abroad. It seems like a given to Europeans that they will do something like this.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#228

Post by torgian » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 12:11 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #104

shanghaiaway wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the difference between north and south China?

Very different foods. The north is a lot more spicy stuff. The south is more about sauces and freshness.

Sitting next to my Chinese girlfriend in Chongqing.

Sichuan food is “麻”, which is a way to say it makes your tongue numb. Not “spicy” (though to me it’s very spicy).

North China food is normal, not spicy ( like dumplings, baozi, and such).

South China food is “清淡” , or something that is light. Typically this applies to Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Taiwan, etc.

But east China (shanghai, jiangsu, ) is sweet food

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#229

Post by eigenvector » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 12:12 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #175

eigenvector wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. I definitely feel where you're coming from. When I was in university I marvelled at the kids studying liberal arts. I thought it was a crazy extravagance to spend 4+ years and tens of thousands of dollars on something that had no evident financial return. At least I was getting an engineering degree that would pay the bills someday and I thought of the arts kids as subsisting on handouts from their afflue…

Nothing is ever “free”. How are you going to convince the middle class family to subsidize someone else’s “liberal arts” degree when that family is struggling themselves? Why should my taxes go toward paying someone else’s overpriced tutition? I graduated from high school and went to the local state college, stayed at home, and three years after graduating, I was making just as much as people sitting beside me who we…

This is not a hypothetical, it's a system that already exists in several countries.

Why do people accept it? My answer is in two parts.

First, in developed countries very little of the overall tax burden is shouldered by struggling families. Whether we're talking about the USA or Finland, the highest income earners pay most of the income tax and the poor hardly anything at all. So unless we're talking about people who are just 'San Francisco poor' (i.e. have high incomes but feel poor because they earn less than their neighbours or friends), these are the people who will be subsidized not the ones subsidizing. Struggling families, rather than being the ones put upon by universal social programs, are the ones who benefit most. For instance, in the USA the top 1% of income earners pay a greater share of total income taxes than the bottom 90% (39% to 29.4% respectively).[1]

Second, one constant among countries with either zero tuition or very low tuition is post-secondary education sector is almost entirely public. There are no overpriced schools, universities regardless of their quality do not profit from their operations so there is no distinction between the state college you attended and the $50k/year private schools. And because universities can't increase their revenue by simply ratcheting up tuition, it's much harder for administrators to wake up one day and decide they should all get a raise paid by for the students which is a form of cost disease that is endemic in North American universities.

[1] https://taxfoundation.org/summary-federal-income-tax-data-20...

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#230

Post by yardie » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 12:12 PM UTC

lambdasquirrel wrote: post #148

jedberg wrote: post #92

University definitely broadened my mind. I grew up in an area that was 99+% white and 50+% Jewish. We literally had “the black family” with twins who were our top track stars. And a few Asian families who hid their Asianness. It was at University that I learned about Asian culture. It was the first time I used chopsticks. It was the first time I drank tea without sugar. It was the first time I ate Chinese food that w…

I would agree, going the other way. Before university, all I knew of rich folks was that they poached the good teachers from my high school (we were a magnet school in the poorer inner city, back when cities were poor). Lets just say that I found that there was more nuance to all those kids from suburbia. I went into university steadfastly believing the roster sheet of progressive policies. Then there was economics c…

I distinctly remember the day I was in line at the bursars. The girl in front of me paid for the entire semester on her credit card! I had heard that people with huge limits existed but it did not even occur to me that tuition would be one if the things you could pay with a VISA.