Going to university does not broaden the mind • Hacker News Board

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#201

Post by rs23296008n1 » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:28 AM UTC

jeena wrote: post #191

thegeomaster wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But looking at it as a pie that needs to be divided is wrong. One of the core tenets of capitalism (well, in theory) is that wealth is created literally from nothing. It's not a zero-sum game. In practice, unfortunately, one needs certain prerequisites to be able to do this. So in my view, the problem is not that something is unequally divided, but that a class of people systematically aren't able to create enough we…

Shouldn't it be quite clear to us right now that this theoretical assumption never worked because we have limited resources on this planet?

The older I get the more I realise resources are limited in some ways but not in others. Running out of petroleum isn't as bad as it sounds. Other candidates have already appeared. Reclamation will occur.

That said, polluting the air and water is still not a good idea. Burning coal is still stupid.

Humanity had more than enough food to feed everyone but we are too greedy at the top to actually do so. We dump food in stupid ways for stupid reasons.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#202

Post by AnaniasAnanas » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:34 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #120

Only the privileged can afford to go to college to “broaden their mind”. Most people go to college to compete in the market and get a job. It’s amazing how much push back I get about computer science degrees should teach marketable skills and people say they weren’t meant to be ”vocational degrees” and you shouldn’t go to college for “job training”. Just the idea that people are suggesting in some of the comments tha…

30k euro per year here. I am now finishing my 4th year abroad. It is easier than you think even if you do not stop unnecessary expenses.

I believe that universities should not teach marketable skills only because these are what some employers like - instead they should teach skills that are not trivial to learn by yourself (some of which might be marketable). If you have already learned Python in uni for example there is no reason why they should also teach you C or Java just because employers like these languages as once you learn one of them learning the others will be trivial. Teaching type theory, formal proofs, and other stuff about theoretical CS however sounds like a good idea as learning these alone will probably be difficult for students that do not have a good background in functional programming.

As for "widening" your mind, I don't think that I would be interested in "widening" my mind on anything not relevant to CS. I would avoid any degree that claimed that it tried to do that.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#203

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:37 AM UTC

jeena wrote: post #196

scarface74 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The process of building a binary search tree or proving the pumping lemma are all exercises. Just like anything else being good at things takes practice, college is (or should be) as good of an environment for this as we can create. Your examples are at least related to software. What good is Art History? The 6 courses of calculus, differential equations, and three or four other classes math classes I took over 20 ye…

It seems to me that you equal Computer Science to Computer Programming. The later is just a really small subset of the former, and like you write most people already know how to do it before they attend University. In my CS studies we never learned any programming, it was kind of assumed that you already know how to do it. Instead we focused on all the other things like computational complexity theory, computer graph…

Learning a language in two weeks is easy. Every language has its own paradigms and way of doing things - you can write Cobol in any language.

I came in as a dev lead with “database developers” who were just learning C#. They wrote C# just like they wrote SQL - one long program in the main method.

Learning a language is not difficult. Learning that you don’t have to write your JSON yourself and you should use a library, learning the difference between structured logging and non structured logging and the libraries that are out there for each. Learning any framework is going to take longer than “two weeks”. Just because you know the syntax doesn’t mean you can write maintainable software. Get in front of C compiler and just “learn the syntax” and see how that works out.

Anyone who comes out of computer science thinking they can hit the ground running as a developer for any company, says a lot about the current state of “computer science” degrees and why so many “developers” can’t do FizzBuzz.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#204

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:46 AM UTC

jeena wrote: post #197

nixpulvis wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah something we can agree on. There should be nothing seen wrong with getting in depth job training at various kinds of vocational schools. As someone who works with a number of people out of bootcamps who are now great programmers I can only hope this is a good sign, at least in my field, some other fields are surly less progressive.

I agree that programming is something which totally sufficient can be taught in vocational schools, no need to do that in university. My brother never went to university and he is a much better programmer than me when it comes to specific languages, etc. The idea behind my Computer Science degree is to learn the theory behind it. I would consider it a failure if it was just programming which I would have learned at t…

And 90% of developers will never use the “theory”. They will be writing bespoked internal apps and yet another software as a service web app.

Even if you are on the opposite end of complexity and writing drivers (few people will), embedded software, operating systems etc., you’re more than likely not going to be using a lot of the theory. Yes I have a CS degree, I was a hobbyist assembly language programmer before going to college, and I spent well over a decade as a low level C bit twiddler.

I’ll take someone any day that can hit the ground running and knows how to develop over someone who knows “theory” and can’t write FizzBuzz in the language that we are using.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#205

Post by AnaniasAnanas » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 9:49 AM UTC

happertiger wrote: post #68

yosito wrote: post #50

For those interested in broadening their minds, I highly recommend living in a country other than the one you were born in for at least a year. Preferably one with a different language than your first language. It's pretty hard to do that while still hanging on to your narrow mindset. I work remotely and I've had the privilege of being able to live internationally since 2012. But even if you don't work remotely there…

I really think the US should require all college grads to spend a year overseas in a country that speaks a different language. I got an education and then I got a real education from travel myself.

How will that help them with their CS education exactly?

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#206

Post by mettamage » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 10:04 AM UTC

University in most part didn't broaden my mind when I really think about it. But I was curious what the pinnacle of formal education was, a level that no one else in my family has been able to achieve. I'd say it's partly sham (when I studied business and psychology), partly lived up to its standards (when I studied the most difficult courses in CS).

The most mind broadening experience I had was taking one course in Buddhism. I did this outside of my degree, the course doesn't show up on any of my diploma's. That truly was a mind broadening experience. That experience was also unique unfortunately.

It was a mixed bag, but ultimately worth it.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#207

Post by xcjones » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 10:07 AM UTC

andrepd wrote: post #66

tootahe45 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Marxist, so even more in favor of a ruling class above all.

I know you're just trying to be snarky, but how does that make any sense?

[flagged]

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#208

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 10:09 AM UTC

Aloha wrote: post #141

macspoofing wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I never even gave a second thought to making fun of people of other races. You shouldn't make racist jokes because you shouldn't needlessly hurt or offend the people around you. That isn't quite the same as being racist (although depending on the intention it could be). Racist means hating someone based on their ethnicity or skin color. It isn't quite the same. >I suspect that had I not been exposed to other races,…

I know people like him, their perceived racism is as much fear from a lack of familiarity as it is anything - a broadly diverse society is important - it's specifically important for Americanism to flourish.

[deleted]

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#209

Post by geomark » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 10:10 AM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #175

eigenvector wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. I definitely feel where you're coming from. When I was in university I marvelled at the kids studying liberal arts. I thought it was a crazy extravagance to spend 4+ years and tens of thousands of dollars on something that had no evident financial return. At least I was getting an engineering degree that would pay the bills someday and I thought of the arts kids as subsisting on handouts from their afflue…

Nothing is ever “free”. How are you going to convince the middle class family to subsidize someone else’s “liberal arts” degree when that family is struggling themselves? Why should my taxes go toward paying someone else’s overpriced tutition? I graduated from high school and went to the local state college, stayed at home, and three years after graduating, I was making just as much as people sitting beside me who we…

Of course you are correct, it's not "free". I always chuckle when I hear about "free" education, "free" healthcare, etc. Somebody is paying for it. It might not be you, at least not at this moment. But if you ever make any money you will be paying for someone else's education. And maybe you are ok with that, improving society and all, assuming you believe what they are learning in university actually does that.

Re: Going to university does not broaden the mind

#210

Post by AnaniasAnanas » Sat, Nov 24, 2018, 10:23 AM UTC

docbrown wrote: post #59

mroche wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My first real college programming job was with people who specifically did not hire out of the CS department. Not going to lie, that sounds incredibly counter-intuitive. However, as long as the people have the right skills or mindset I don’t see the issue. There may be a lacking in deeper underlying systems knowledge, though.

>However, as long as the people have the right skills or mindset I don’t see the issue. That is exactly what they’re looking for, regardless of degree type. Without digging up all the numbers, soft skills in the hiring process are important to a great deal——as long as that person is able to understand the on-the-job training you’re going to give them. You can have person A and B interviewing for a PM position. Person…

Isn't assuming that just because person A is not too social (by not having many friends, not going to parties, and being shy maybe) that he will attack anyone who disagrees with them and that he will not be able to communicate effectively on job-related issues nothing but prejudice?