China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced • Hacker News Board

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#211

Post by throwaway548u65 » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

fsloth wrote: post #62

As a non-chinese 'westerner', to my understanding the important background to this culturally is that Chinese culture has been traditionally much more legalistic than western culture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legalism_(Chinese_philosophy) . It has lots of nuances but the most important difference, if compared to western view of the justice system and the rights of state, is that the most important thing in a lega…

Yet in practice, I’ve had the opposite experience.

In China, when you break some rule or law, the police are much more lenient and forgiving. First time offenders (of minor crimes) always just get warnings. Even if the law requires a fine or some punishment, most cops will let you go after a stern lecturing.

But in the US, once the bureaucracy kicks in, then you have to follow the letter of the law. There is very little compassion. It’s about punishment, not re-education.

Perhaps it’s different in Europe, but that’s my experience in China and the US.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#212

Post by blbviviv » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 5:24 PM UTC

ladw wrote: post #30

In this system, is it possible to have a negative balance?

That's relative, isn't it? Below average is effectively negative for most purposes. Contrary, the Root Mean Square of a sinusoid AC supply can't go negative, for example. Economy (or socio...) is maybe not that simple, but still based on a balance between giving and receiving. What's interesting then is the average of the slope: zero for AC pretty much by definition. While stability is important, growth is too, economically speaking, so the derivative would need to be normalized under an average, so we are back to square one.

That's to say, of course people can be on the decline.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#213

Post by ByThyGrace » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 5:27 PM UTC

gexla wrote: post #108

jld89 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valenzuela? Really?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-16/chinese-tech-giant-zt...

I think GP was dumbfounded by the mis-spelling of Venezuela than actually asking for more information.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#214

Post by throwaway548u65 » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 5:30 PM UTC

AnaniasAnanas wrote: post #182

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've gotta look at things in perspective. When you live in China what you get is basically 0 crime, a very rapidly developing economy with huge potential for all sorts of entrepreneurship, extremely cheap cost of living with heavy subsidies for costs like utilities, and a generally pretty peaceful and pleasant place. Biggest practical problem is fake or knockoff everything from condoms to eggs. Yip fake eggs are re…

> When you live in China what you get is basically 0 crime This is far, far from the truth.

But closer to the truth than not.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#215

Post by coldtea » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 5:30 PM UTC

bitexploder wrote: post #155

coldtea wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Secret kill lists are for terrorits Or so they say. In any case, it's a single country deciding, and that any some ad hoc committee, without a public due process, and targeting people residing on sovereign states. And of course often killing 10-20 nearby people as well, up to 130 for a strike on a wedding: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security/death-toll...

Yes, there are examples like this. Collateral damage will happen in war. It is tragic and always will be, and I say that with all sincerity. National security has always been thus and always will be so until there is no such thing as a nation.

>Yes, there are examples like this. Collateral damage will happen in war.

There's no war declared, and this is just random people (as far as the UN is concerned) deciding and sending drones to kill other people -- and in any case, without any due process, official declaration of war, or anything of the sort, and in sovereign countries at that.

>National security has always been thus and always will be so until there is no such thing as a nation.

It's not "national security", it's just might. If national security was an excuse for such an act, then the nations those innocent bystanders died in the strike would be OK to send missions to kill those responsible as well, and why not, 20-100 "collateral damages" as well.

>It is tragic and always will be

Doesn't seem to be perceived that tragically. A few people dying in some mass shooting in some US city gets 100x the media coverage and public tears...

It looks more like "yeah, whatever, they're third worlders anyway".

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#216

Post by Juliate » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 5:30 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #207

dnomad wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name. This is such complete nonsense. I think it's hilarious how totally and completely misguided about China that Westerners, and Americans in particular, actually are. It boggles the belief just how much complete nonsense is spouted her…

> Social credit is extremely popular in China Person: "I think a social credit system is bad for China." Automated Bot: "100 social credit penalty for you!"

This is a brilliant equivocal take :p

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#217

Post by blbviviv » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 5:30 PM UTC

jobigoud wrote: post #52

ladw wrote: post #30

In this system, is it possible to have a negative balance?

I don't know the answer but if there is a floor at 0, that would mean at this point you have nothing to loose, so that could backfire. But you probably get incarcerated before you reach some threshold level.

HN has fault habdlers in place for accounts with karma going too far below zero. It was a hellban at -13 for my old account. I did keep writing for weeks before I noticed, the exercise of which was still rewarding in a way, and I still receive few answers now. Sometimes I suspect mods to the visibillity. I reinterpretted rangeban to mean banned beyond a certain range (as opposed to how it is commonly used: the ban of a whole range of possible identities).

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#218

Post by throwaway548u65 » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

ElBarto wrote: post #114

706f6f70 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China. There are very few absolute wrongs in the world and it's not clear that this would be one of them.

Chinese value personal freedom and do enjoy quite a lot of it, actually. In fact, I'd say that Chinese society allows more individuality and freedom than e.g. Japanese society.

Definitely agree. Japan’s social and cultural norms are a lot more stifling than China’s. But both are more stifling than the America’s.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#219

Post by throwaway548u65 » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

iliketosleep wrote: post #199

tepidandroid wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A non-stop tradition of oppression doesn't somehow make new oppression less bad. The Chinese government abused and oppressed their people so hard for so long they accidentally lifted 740 million people out of abject, 3rd world poverty. But don't let that get in the way of a good rant.

I think you're missing the big picture. Just ask yourself these two questions: 1. How did they get into "abject, 3rd world poverty" in the first place? 2. Is their current policy direction closer to the era of Deng or that of Mao?

1. 100 years of being colonized by multiple countries. Then a World War followed by a Civil War.

2. Deng for sure.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#220

Post by will_brown » Fri, Nov 23, 2018, 5:52 PM UTC

rubyfan wrote: post #208

icebraining wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is getting an apartment "taking on debt"?

Lease agreements typically entitle one to a property for a fixed period for financially agreed terms. It’s incredibly hard to evict a bad tenant. One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future. An understanding of ones debt to income ratio is also useful in predicting their future ability to hold up their end of the lease. It’s actually a completely reasonable use of credit report.

>One’s past payment performance is a huge predictor for the future.

And I’m sure China could easily argue prior social behavior is a huge predictor of future social behavior.

But the real problem in the US is you have an entire class of people who have no credit history (the poor), not bad credit history, but no credit history.

You aren’t wrong if I’m lending money I’d want to know debt to income ratio, but why does that matter to getting a job? If you have no credit history and can’t get a good job, how do you think that is going to effect your income and access to credit. Look at the studies of impact of credit history, it facilitates keeping poor people poor (limits social mobility).