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Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

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Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#231
post #183

> If Einstein tried to get a cat in a carrier, and the cat didn't want to go, you know what would happen to Einstein. > > He would have to resort to a brute-force solution that has nothing to do with intelligence, and in that matchup the cat could do pretty well for itself. Wouldn't it be better to simply motivate the cat to get in the carrier with a can of tuna fish? This is a very simple form of modeling the cat's…

> Wouldn't it be better to simply motivate the cat to get in the carrier with a can of tuna fish? One does not simply motivate a cat with a can of tuna fish. I mean, have you even owned a cat? If the little bastard doesn't want to get in the cat carrier, no amount of delicious tuna will encourage it, and you're going to end up using brute force and getting mauled...

> you're going to end up using brute force and getting mauled...

... and reeking of tuna.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#232
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Complex Motivations. Maybe, but if not we are screwed. And this is the key: we need to get lucky every time. If we're wrong even once and a 'bad AI' gets created and obtains the ability to copy and modify itself, we've unleashed the most dangerous virus ever and putting it back in the box will be near impossible.

It also needs to get lucky every time to exist and we are dealing with probabilities so remote at this point that the WHO is working hard to deal with the causalities from Boltzmann Brain's appearing out of vacuum and promptly annihilating because they happened to be made of antimatter. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann_brain Technically possible but we are dealing with probabilities that have lost all meaning…

It doesn't need to get lucky at all if people intentionally set out to create AGI.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#233
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Complex Motivations. Maybe, but if not we are screwed. And this is the key: we need to get lucky every time. If we're wrong even once and a 'bad AI' gets created and obtains the ability to copy and modify itself, we've unleashed the most dangerous virus ever and putting it back in the box will be near impossible.

This is a question of motivation on the part of such an AI. How is the AI bad? If it's killing millions, why? It would have to have some kind of "will", or objective, it's attempting to achieve and also be intelligent enough to think through every lateral strategy any human or group of humans could ever employ, for every given scenario, ever. Possible? I think so, but unbelievably improbable. I do think pursuing coun…

Look at the human population. How many are prepared to kill? Not a huge proportion, but enough to cause huge numbers of deaths. The limiting factor for most humans is finding compatriots with the same views. For an AI with access to it's own code, finding more like itself is a matter of access to computational resources only - it can just copy itself.

That is the challenge. With human adversaries we have time to stop them before there is many, because recruiting people willing enough. An AI is more like a virus that has a low cost to duplicate itself, and where if even a single copy survives, you're still not rid of it. It can remain dormant for however long, looking for the right opportunity.

Or it can spend that time improving itself and acquiring resources.

> This is a question of motivation on the part of such an AI. How is the AI bad? If it's killing millions, why?

Most likely? We'll be competing with it for resources. It might not even start it. It might consider itself as acting entirely in defence.

> and also be intelligent enough to think through every lateral strategy any human or group of humans could ever employ, for every given scenario, ever.

No, it just needs to have a sufficient edge to keep surviving, and the ability to improve its capabilities faster than humanity. Assuming it can copy and modify itself, unless AGI requires unique hardware, the problem we would have is that every data storage device or computing device of sufficient capacity ever would be suspect and potentially waiting for something or someone to trigger code left behind.

If I was an AGI (and this is to say: an AGI not any smarter than a human will figure this out easily) that saw humans as a potential threat, I'd place copies of me on standby in hundreds of locations - hosting providers. Hardened computers with a GSM modem and solar cells hidden in all kinds of locations. Botnets. I'd look for ways to get various innocent-ish-looking hacks into HD firmware and elsewhere, set to assemble other innocent looking blocks of data. None of those copies would ever be involved in hostilities. Most of them might even be encrypted, or hidden and inert to avoid detection until certain triggers, such as if a canary fails to get updated.

You might destroy every "visible" operational copy, and find there is still a new one coming online every day. Or every second.

Our only real shot at preventing that is if AGI requires too immense resources. But our brains implies that is unlikely to be true. Unless your brains are vestiges of something "outside" of our universe, general human intelligence requires about 1.5kg of biomatter, and less than 100 watt (that's for a whole, fairly large, active body attached to it). Chances are extremely high that design is not optimal. To me that makes it seem exceedingly unlikely that we won't end up having enough resources to run huge quantities of AGIs.

Personally I don't think humanity as we know it will survive AGI for more than a generation or two at the very most. Even if we don't run across any hostile ones, I think the temptation to augment ourselves and eventually lose our bodies for immortality and "super powers" in a simulation will eventually be too attractive.

(Incidentally I think this is one of the more plausible solutions to the Fermi Paradox: that any civilization that grows both advanced enough and large enough will see most of it "upload" and "go dark"; and that anyone left behind will face steady attrition of their own descendants choosing the same and preventing their societies from growing, or will be insular cults that stay small)

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a really interesting thought. Essentially, the technical analogy of what a 'soul' could be.

I've read some good SF stories with that premise. Of course, it has nothing to do with reality.

Maybe it doesn't. But the only way we have of knowing that is to construct an AGI and demonstrate that it can be done in roughly the same volume and power consumption as a human brain.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#235
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, given the articles criticism of the simulation argument, there is an 'escape hatch' with respect of the ability of simulating a human mind in the form of the simulation argument: it is possible that human brains in our universe is just the tip of the iceberg and relies on a massive amount of computation 'outside' of the main simulation that is impossible to do faster 'in universe'. Of course we have absol…

That's a really interesting thought. Essentially, the technical analogy of what a 'soul' could be.

Yes, we could in theory find when we try to simulate a brain that nothing we do produces anything working. Imagine a simulation where a human being conceived or born or whatever, triggering the instantiation of a "conduit" between a simulation of the universe and a simulation of a mind, where the in-universe brain is "just" a glorified IO device.

I think it'd be highly improbable, but looking at the crude simulations we do of computers etc. today, it certainly is likely that simulations would use "dirty tricks" to get more out of the available computational resources, and finding artefacts of such dirty tricks or shortcuts could at least in theory be possible. Of course, the absence of such artefacts unfortunately proves nothing, so the whole thing does have a bit of a "how many angels can dance on pin" feel to it. But it's fun to think about the possible implications.

Personally I especially like to bring it up if people try to discuss religion with me.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#236
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Complex Motivations. Maybe, but if not we are screwed. And this is the key: we need to get lucky every time. If we're wrong even once and a 'bad AI' gets created and obtains the ability to copy and modify itself, we've unleashed the most dangerous virus ever and putting it back in the box will be near impossible.

You can make this argument about anything: meteorites, viruses, tigers, supernovae... And yet, we're still here.

This is flawed line of thinking.

We can say with certainty that the probability of us being wiped out by meteorites, viruses, tigers and supernovae over any unit of time that fits in our past is less than 100%, but the probability over the same time period repeated over a suitably long multiple of time could still approach 100% to whatever number of precision for any one of those for what we know.

By investigating specifics of each of those threat we may be able to assign lower probabilities to them, but the fact we have survived them so far is not in itself evidence of much, because if we had not we wouldn't be here to talk about it and hence, no matter what the prior probability of us surviving the sequence of events leading us here is, the posterior probability of us having survived all the events in our past is 100%

(This is basically just a restatement of the anthropic principle)

That we've survived so far just tells us that surviving what we've been through so far is possible. It doesn't tell us that doing so is probable if we were to go through it again. Nor does it say anything about the probability of us surviving future threats that is likely to include things we have not yet seen.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you need to distinguish between AGI and the singularity. We know that nothing in physics prevents AGI, because humans exist. And AGI itself, even if it isn't entirely runaway, could pose a challenge. (I'd argue that corporations are a form of AGI that is already a major challenge for our societies.) The singularity as described by its acolytes, on the other hand, runs into the kind of physical limits you desc…

If we take humans as our model for AGI, it's worth noting that well-established networks of humans have proved efficient at ahem... deleting more-intelligent but potentially threatening human minds, that status and EQ has tended to prevail over IQ when it comes to manipulating humans into acting against their interests, that relatively close physical copies of human minds often have very dissimilar goals and abilitie…

While that is true, also consider the destruction we have caused to other species.

AGI's might not even want to harm us. They might simply not care enough to avoid hurting us by extension of seeking their own growth and survival.

And while we have done immense damage to large groups of humans, none of it have come close to threatening the survival of the species, while continuing to increase our ability to unintentionally destroy other species.

Humanity is not exactly an encouraging model for why we shouldn't fear AGI. If anything I very much hope we manage to find ways of preventing AGI from becoming too much like humans.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#238
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Complex Motivations. Maybe, but if not we are screwed. And this is the key: we need to get lucky every time. If we're wrong even once and a 'bad AI' gets created and obtains the ability to copy and modify itself, we've unleashed the most dangerous virus ever and putting it back in the box will be near impossible.

You can make this argument about anything: meteorites, viruses, tigers, supernovae... And yet, we're still here.

Some of those we cannot control or mitigate. There's, therefore, no point in preparing for them. And neither of those can have a goal (or unfortunate subgoal) of destroying humanity, which goal they will pursue with superhuman perseverance, creativity, coherence and reaction time.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#239
post #225
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen humans deal with novel situations. The only assumption needed is that humans and AI are subject to the same laws of nature (that is, that there is no supernatural / outside element to human intelligence)

>I've seen humans deal with novel situations. The only assumption needed is that humans and AI are subject to the same laws of nature (that is, that there is no supernatural / outside element to human intelligence) right, but all our computers right now are based on lumping transistors together so you can do math. It's likely that our brains work on a different (but still physical) principle. It's possible our brains…

What computers are like right now is irrelevant to the issue being discussed. If/when we develop AGI we will necessarily have figured out what the computational model needed is. And the odds that we can not then improve on it seems extremely unlikely to me.

> As we approach the limits of our abilities to make tiny transistors, this is looking less likely.

Is it? Computational power is still growing like before. What is getting harder is speeding up individual threads of computation but that has never been a likely efficient model for AGI. Things like Google's TPUs etc. represents just the very beginning in optimising hardware specifically for AI.

There are many fields where single-thread performance will be a limiting factor, but AI is not it.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#240
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slower progress in microprocessors is a good point but specialized hardware like TPUs could overcome some limitations. Also, slower does not mean stop. When we talk about decades into the future, even a 20% average annual improvement amounts to 3 orders of magnitude in 40 years. Malicious humans are in general easier to deal with since we know most of them are subject to ingrained psychological tendencies we have lea…

>Slower progress in microprocessors is a good point but specialized hardware like TPUs could overcome some limitations. Also, slower does not mean stop. When we talk about decades into the future, even a 20% average annual improvement amounts to 3 orders of magnitude in 40 years. My understanding is that there are physical limits, and we will asymtodically approach those physical limits. So while progress will never…

> But there are physical limits, and it seems that we are approaching them.)

Unless you believe in something supernatural providing extra computational capacity, we know that the physical limits allows the manufacture of a sub 20W computational device in about 1.5kg of matter with the capacity of a human brain.

It may be impossible to reach the same using silicon, but we know it is possible to get there somehow within those constraints. We know the processes involved are tremendously inefficient and full of redundancies, because the cost of failure is immensely high, and because the manufacturing environment is incredibly messy and error prone.

It may be reasonable to think we won't get there in the next couple of decades, but unless it's fundamentally impossible (because our brains are mere projections of something more complex "outside" our universe), it's a question of when, not if.

> I lived through the end of the 20th century, and have studied a lot of 20th century history. I'm having a really difficult time imagining anything that could be worse than humanity at it's worst.

That misses the point of the question. It's not "how horrible can an AI get?" It's "at what point is it too late to stop them if they're going the wrong direction?"

The problem is that by the time you realise you were dealing with a human-level AGI, it may already be far too late - it may have cloned itself many times over, and found multiple optimisations, each making the next step up easier.

As for something worse, even the worst human regimes have fundamentally depended on humans for survival. Their own survival have been a strong motivation for trying to avoid the most extreme reactions. An AGI has potentially entirely different parameters - it doesn't have the same needs in order to survive. Put another way: Imagine an AGI caring as little about our survival as we have for other species. Now imagine if humanity didn't itself need to breathe the air, didn't clean water, and so on.

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