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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#71

Post by andy_ppp »

One thing that our company did right was hire a load of junior graduates; they were extremely lucky to benefit from years of learning and explanations from their very senior mentors and it encouraged people to think through why things were being done and to choose simpler solutions for them.

However, I still wonder if any of them are natural programmers or if they were just doing it because it was a good job. By this I mean it would be hard for them to understand and be self sufficient even after a year of intensive training.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#72

Post by jrs95 »

dharmab wrote: post #33
aphextron wrote: post #28

>I ask this because I'm 4-years-experienced as a front-end UI/interaction dev, nothing but glowing references, looking for another, similar, position (regular, not senior or lead) and have had...way too many interviews and rejections, and can't understand why companies are such sticklers for interested devs to have Every Single Box in their list of requirements checked when it would take days or a couple weeks to lea…

Don't quit your job without your next source of income secured.

I've had 5 jobs now, each lasting about a year and a half at most, and I only quit 1 of them because everyone on the team was being replaced to avoid having to grant any options prior to an acquisition. Twice my employer went out of business entirely, another time they laid off 20% of their workforce to secure more funding, and most recently a company let go all of it's remote developers after a change in leadership.

While I agree you shouldn't quit your job without having the next thing already in place, at least in my experience this is a very volatile industry and you can't really expect to keep a job for a long time anyways. The odds may be better at a bigger company, but it still happens. One of the largest employers in my city just laid off about 1100 people.

I've been lucky in that I've been able to quickly find work after these things happened before, but I look at it like I need to be prepared to potentially have to go without work for months at any time. Hopefully my next job will be one I can keep for several years, as the constant job hopping really isn't for me.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#73

Post by jjcm »

On the job training is very much a thing, but I think the vast majority of companies out there prefer to start doing that while a potential hire is still in college. It's less risky and usually the potentials are more moldable. Internships that move to a full time hire is how we brought in a large percentage of the workforce over at Microsoft, and the same is true where I am now (Atlassian). For those in that position, we supplement their internships with a lot of on the job training.

It becomes harder when someone is in the position you're in - 4 years of experience at companies that aren't big name ones. Most companies aren't sure how good your skills will be, and you come with way more risk than someone still in school. If an intern doesn't work out, after six months you just don't extend them an offer. Their internship becomes a long extended interview. In your situation, if you pass the interview but don't end up working out after 6 months, the process of removing you is much harder. It requires a lot more risk on the company's part, so almost all of the big names exclusively look for college hires.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#76

Post by murukesh_s »

aphextron wrote: post #36
dharmab wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't quit your job without your next source of income secured.

>Don't quit your job without your next source of income secured. I guess this is the takeaway from a self preservation standpoint, but the alternative is worse. Spending months of your employer's time completely mentally checked out, taking sick time and vacation for interviews, pretending like you care in meetings, it's all too much. I watched that happen multiple times before I left, and it's really discourteous to…

It is not, absolutely not. Just think from the company side, they protect their financial interest first and in time of difficulties they lay you off with no mercy. There is nothing unethical in that as well. You just do your job in a professional manner even on your last day..

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#77

Post by wyclif »

justapassenger wrote: post #58

One of the reasons that I saw, is that training is very expensive for the company (both in terms of money, opportunity cost, time of other people, etc) which combined with people changing jobs often produces low, or negative ROI. By the time person is trained, they leave, before they start to meaningfully contribute. More experienced folks also change jobs often, but you have higher chance of getting some productive…

Oftentimes if the company is a USA startup, none of the experienced engineers have time to train or even mentor junior devs. A lot of startups want people who are "10x programmers" (however ridiculous that notion might be) or maybe it's less sarcastic to describe them as new hires that don't need any guidance or input, and will achieve maximum productivity after a short time adjusting to the new environment/toolset/workflow.

Also, you bring up an important point about time at the company. Anecdotal, but seems like a lot of devs spend 2-3 years at a company before moving on. That cycle is so short that the company doesn't think it's worth investing in junior people and doing so may even be considered counterproductive; the common view is that it's like investing in competitors. I'd like to think I'm wrong about that, but so far it remains a nagging impression.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#78

Post by city41 »

rubicon33 wrote: post #12

False premise. There is no shortage of devs. That has been a complete fabrication, made up entirely by big tech companies, in a propaganda push to promote more and more people getting into CS. It's entirely so they can pay developers less.

Then why do developers get contacted by recruiters constantly? Every developer I know gets contacted. Yet no non-tech colleagues I know experience anything similar in their industry.

I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm genuinely curious.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#79

Post by Niksko »

There are places that (shock! horror!) don't actually mind that much what tech stack you have a background in. These are also likely to be places where to use the right tools for the right job, failure and learning from it is encouraged, and everyone helps to fill in the numerous gaps that everyone has in their knowledge.

It might be tricky to find them, but it will be well worth it.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#80

Post by rootsudo »

justapassenger wrote: post #58

One of the reasons that I saw, is that training is very expensive for the company (both in terms of money, opportunity cost, time of other people, etc) which combined with people changing jobs often produces low, or negative ROI. By the time person is trained, they leave, before they start to meaningfully contribute. More experienced folks also change jobs often, but you have higher chance of getting some productive…

It also depends on the culture.

In Asia, it's not as cut throat as USA, where you shop around every 2-3 years. Japan they'll train you, and quitting isn't something that's easily done -- watch any Japanese netflix series about slice of life/normal life and you'll see the daily struggle or just read the news, or if you have the chance, go to Japan. Death by overwork is real and on the other hand, companies such as Rakutan will hire newly minted devs from schools that may know nothing and use the herd of workers to make them catch up.

Philippines and Indonesia is also similar with OJT training and filling seats.

Can't comment for anywhere else in Asia. But it is really 180 compared to USA.

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