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Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

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Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#81
post #47

I can't help but take a stab. Argument from cats. Remembering that the cat represents humanity: $5 for a group of neurons which will make the cat sit at this point (which happens to be at the entrance into a cat carrier), then $5 for making the cat backpedal a little. Emus. There are many tactics humans can't use for various reasons (saturation nuclear bombardment, for example). It doesn't say much about intelligence…

> Complex Motivations. Maybe, but if not we are screwed. And this is the key: we need to get lucky every time. If we're wrong even once and a 'bad AI' gets created and obtains the ability to copy and modify itself, we've unleashed the most dangerous virus ever and putting it back in the box will be near impossible.

If you mean it would be dangerous in that it can improve itself beyond our ability to understand, contain, or mitigate it, then possibly.

If you're scared of it copying itself and then having multiple existing copies at once, then not necessarily. In that case it would be competing with itself for computing power and bandwidth. Look what happened when bitcoin forked - it lost a bunch of silicon time.

(Cue conspiracies about Bitcoin actually being a hugely powerful general AI disguising itself as cryptocurrency...)

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#82
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First time encountering a Maciej idlewords post, huh? He doesn't even take himself seriously. That also doesn't stop him from being an excellent and thoughtful writer.

I don't mean to say "he made a Rick and Morty reference, Serious Adults don't make Rick and Morty references". That'd be dumb. I mean that he points to a robot in Rick and Morty that was sad about being programmed to pass butter, and attempts to infer from this that real robots would refuse to intelligently pursue arbitrary goals, and therefore that the orthogonality thesis is false. He's treating a thing that happen…

The problem is that the thesis cannot be disproved by one counter example (real or not), because the existential hazard comes from the possibility of just one such instance of an AI.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#83
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are pretty optimistic about your AI's ability to deal with novel situations.

You're essentially arguing that AGI can't exist, and you're assuming when people say "AI will turn the world to paperclips" they mean a really smart go-playing neural net could do that. Of course it can't. Everyone agrees there is some magic smoke necessary for AGI that we haven't figured out yet. The arguments that AI will eat the world are about AGI , not current instances of narrow AI. It may be true that an AGI w…

Eh, if you are talking about something truly human-like rather than what people usually mean when they say AI these days, I think there are other limits.

We're running up against limits on feature-size in our integrated circuits. If you invent an AGI that can make smarter copies of itself... it's pretty likely those same physical limits will continue to apply, meaning that each iteration will be better than the last, but like this year's latest CPU, it will be less better than the previous generation than that generation was better than the one that came before.

And yeah, I am a whole lot less optimistic about AGI in general than when I was as a younger man, simply because when I was younger, there was a lot more headroom in how much better computer hardware could get.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#84
post #61
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to say "he made a Rick and Morty reference, Serious Adults don't make Rick and Morty references". That'd be dumb. I mean that he points to a robot in Rick and Morty that was sad about being programmed to pass butter, and attempts to infer from this that real robots would refuse to intelligently pursue arbitrary goals, and therefore that the orthogonality thesis is false. He's treating a thing that happen…

The serious statement he makes is that humans have complex motivations, and he thinks any superintelligence would as well--in fact it might be a defining feature of intelligence. The Rick and Morty reference was just a humorous example of what might happen, not an actual argument. The subheading was "the argument from complex motivations", not "the argument from Rick and Morty", so let's try and focus on the serious…

> it might be a defining feature of intelligence.

But if not, and the alarmists are right, deep shit. That's why the author's argument is void. The author needs to show that the chance of an AI with a simple goal and hyperintelligence is negligible. "it might be" is a coin toss, that doesn't help.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's likely just matter. But we still don't know everything about matter.

At the scale of the brain we do.

Sean Carroll explaining why "the laws of physics underlying everyday life are completely understood". (renormalization group, pair production at human energy scales)

https://youtu.be/Vrs-Azp0i3k?t=2046

(this specific explanation starts at 34:06, but earlier parts are worth watching if anybody wants a nice introduction to the Standard Model and QFT)

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#86
I offer a different, human-centric, POV: we are in a managerial-driven society with actual trend is more and more form Ford-model workers to use and control for business.

Human in this model are a problem: too stupid they are unavailing, not-that-much-stupid do not accept to be used as "the manager in charge" want. So? Better found replacements. Mechanical one. AI one. So the rest of human being can be used for reproduction, pleasure, gameplay, whatever and form them as stupid as possible is not a problem anymore since they are essentially unneeded for managements, only toys.

So today's managers dream "intelligent systems" in factory, "AI developers" (they already manage to cut off admins, too powerful and expert (they know the big picture so they can act autonomously) to being controlled as today devs), they dream a future in witch they simply order something to a machine and get obeyed without contestant, law limitation etc. TV series like Continuum, films like V for vendetta, The Handmaid's Tale only foreseen, as good artist do, that kind of future. Mass production of fantasy films with a religious background do the same on the opposite field.

That's the real troublesome point for us. AI today is not "AI", only pattern matching for automation without any comprehension of the physical world. New dictatorship instead is already there and more and more powerful.

Consider a thing: we do vast majority of our social critical tasks (identity management, banks operation, medicine, ...) on computers, so on proprietary systems made by very few more and more powerful vendors. Our data pass through very few more and more giants webservices, so someone else computers, free communication software was put into oblivion (from usenet to email to the concept of desktop-centric, personal computing from Xerox Alto&c to LispM passing through Plan9 and modern GNU/Linux desktop) substituted or jailed in proprietary systems (VoIP tech are mostly open but nearly all VoIP calls pass through very few companies, emails are open standard but most of user now are pushed to webmails etc). We are at a point of jail free software over a proprietary blackbox (think about WSL, DeX, Crostini), we have invented locked-down hardware that can only run proprietary software (secure-boot &c). Now imaging how easy can be steering the entire society for few people in the right position. The rest is simply a matter of time.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#87
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are pretty optimistic about your AI's ability to deal with novel situations.

You're essentially arguing that AGI can't exist, and you're assuming when people say "AI will turn the world to paperclips" they mean a really smart go-playing neural net could do that. Of course it can't. Everyone agrees there is some magic smoke necessary for AGI that we haven't figured out yet. The arguments that AI will eat the world are about AGI , not current instances of narrow AI. It may be true that an AGI w…

Everyone agrees there is some magic smoke necessary for AGI that we haven't figured out yet

Do they? I don’t (with the possible exception that a definition of AGI itself seems to be this magic smoke)

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#88
> The penultimate premise is if we create an artificial intelligence, whether it's an emulated human brain or a de novo piece of software, it will operate at time scales that are characteristic of electronic hardware (microseconds) rather than human brains (hours).

I never understood that argument, why would that be true? If I train a state of the art convnet it takes days on the most efficient hardware I can efford, why on earth would we go from nothing to superintelligent that also runs incredibly fast. Isn't it way more logical to assume that it will be slow at first?

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#89

> The penultimate premise is if we create an artificial intelligence, whether it's an emulated human brain or a de novo piece of software, it will operate at time scales that are characteristic of electronic hardware (microseconds) rather than human brains (hours). I never understood that argument, why would that be true? If I train a state of the art convnet it takes days on the most efficient hardware I can efford,…

Yes, perhaps at first, but it can invent its own optimizations.

Re: Superintelligence: The Idea That Eats Smart People (2016)

#90
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be unconcerned, you need to be very optimistic and have a very strong believe (99% or higher probability) that no AI to be invented in the next four or five decades can deal with novel situations (which we didn’t anticipate beforehand).

Yeah, deal with novel situations better than humans. In a world where we are approaching the physical limits of integrated circuit feature size? I like my chances. Personally, I find it amazing that humanity survived the cold war. the fact we did not self-immolate goes against everything I believe about humanity and human nature. The fact that we made it through that gives me a lot of hope for the future. But, the fi…

Slower progress in microprocessors is a good point but specialized hardware like TPUs could overcome some limitations. Also, slower does not mean stop. When we talk about decades into the future, even a 20% average annual improvement amounts to 3 orders of magnitude in 40 years.

Malicious humans are in general easier to deal with since we know most of them are subject to ingrained psychological tendencies we have learned much about over the course of history and they depend on other humans to pull off something as catastrophic as a world war.

A general AI would have certain immediate advantages over humans:

  - Immensely larger communication bandwidth
  - Broader knowledge than any single group of humans
  - Faster thinking speed (at least by enlisting other processors)
Let me ask you (or anyone else) a question: What would be a minimum demonstrated capability of an AI that starts to worry you?
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