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The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

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Re: The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

#101
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's some merit to this but I'd say it's still a little off the mark. Homelessness is a condition, how people got there is one thing, the main tools to "fix it" are fairly straightforward: give people housing. Dealing with everything else (mental health issues, drug addiction, etc.) can be dealt with separately, and will be vastly easier without having the fundamental problem of homelessness.

how people got there is one thing, the main tools to "fix it" are fairly straightforward: give people housing The solution sounds straightforward, the path to get there looks like a Gordian knot. How do you pay for it? How do you get that funding source to go along with your plans to pay for it? Etc.

What do you mean by "Gordian knot" here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_First

> In August 2007, the US Department of Housing and Urban Development reported that the number of chronically homeless individuals living on the streets or in shelters dropped by an unprecedented 30 percent, from 175,914 people in 2005 to 123,833 in 2007. This was credited in part to the "housing first" approach; Congress in 1999 directed that HUD spend 30% of its funding on the method.

The page is full of more success stories like that. If it's so impossible, why is it already being done all over the world?

> Studies in New York City and in Utah have shown that every homeless person housed in programs such as Housing First saves taxpayers $10,000 and $8,000 a year, respectively. A research study at University of Northern Carolina also reported that a housing project for the chronically homeless called Moore Place had saved the county $2.4 million.

Yet it "seems like a Gordion knot" because how would we pay for it... that's the answer, you don't pay, you save money. So if the problem is how some people feel about something, because they haven't informed themselves, then they should feel something else, problem solved.

Re: The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

#102
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unfortunately, a lot of the solutions are expensive and frankly politically toxic. At the end of the day, everything is political. Instead of shying away from it engage with it because it is the only way you'll change society.

I think what we can do tomorrow is lighten regulations on things like how many people are allowed in a hotel room. This could help many people tonight. Next is feeding the homeless, some cities limit how they can be fed. We need to take a close look at these sorts of regulations as soon as possible. Just these two things could make a huge impact.

This is a well known issue known for a long time.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flophouse#Cage_hotels_in_the...

Re: The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

#103

homelessness is the societal manifestation of the lower end of the bell curve. period. anyone who's interacted with homeless people knows this. yes there are exceptions, and no they do not make up the bulk of the distribution. putting your hand in the sand and blaming "slow wage growth" or some other secondary factor instead of pointing out the obvious is a disservice to those people. and before you call me harsh, kn…

being a serf is the societal manifestation of the lower end of the bell curve. period. anyone who's interacted with peasants knows this. yes there are serfs who fell out of wealthy families, and no they do not make up the bulk of the distribution.

putting your hand in the sand and blaming "aggressive royal taxation" or some other secondary factor instead of pointing out the obvious is a disservice to the peasantry. and before you call me uncouth, know that I mean this in the complete opposite way: acknowledging the problem with honor is the first step towards its resolution.

Re: The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> suddenly we get very "every person for themselves" the second homelessness has a price tag. A confounding factor involved here is that many government strategies for dealing with the homeless are endless money pits without noticeable results. I think a lot of people would be more comfortable with their tax dollars going to that purpose if they didn't feel like nothing was actually happening from it.

> endless money pits The reason they are money pits is because they aren't something that will be solved by a city or even a state. Any attempt to solve the problem locally in a "humane" way has a high risk of just attracting more folks in the same circumstance to the area. The most effective way for a city or state to "solve" the local homeless problem is to simply pay for one-way bus tickets to somewhere else. But…

I'd be interested to hear how homelessness can be meaningfully addressed in a humane way by the federal government (especially if it is constitutional).

Re: The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

#105

Long-time Seattle resident here who volunteered for several years in the homeless community. Homelessness has always been a thing in Seattle, but has definitely become a much larger issue in the past five years. I'll spare my thoughts on any number of reasons as to why we got here as a city, but will say I think we are doing a terrible disservice to actually finding a solution by lumping "anyone who doesn't have a ho…

> Trying to assist the single mother with children who lives in her car because she lost her job is a VASTLY different issue than trying to assist the drug addict sitting in an alley passed out in their own feces.

I'm not sure it is so different.

I mean it may be on the long term, but the first step of helping them is making sure they get a place to live. You're unlikely to solve any of their other problems effectively unless these people can have a start of a more regular life - and having a place to live is pretty much a condition for everything else.

Re: The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

#106
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, makes sense. Thank you for the reply. Where it's personally frustrating for me: I've sold two companies in my life, and saw my tax rate jump from the lowest to the highest. I'm fine with that. I did well and despite all the work I put in, I recognize the amount of good fortune that was involved - and I'm perfectly happy to give back more because it affects me less, and because it's my fair share. I recognize th…

> I'm perfectly happy to give back more If you really feel that way, charitable organizations can effectively distribute donations far more efficiently and effectively than any government organization has ever been able to. I suspect that if all of the people who say they feel the same way did just voluntarily donate what they considered their own fair share to charity, the homeless crisis would be mostly solved.

That's lovely sounding, but false for a couple of reasons.

1) There's a capability gap. Charities can't do a number of things that are needed that local government can. Simple things like permission to operate portable toilets, or working alongside cops for redirection away from jail it possible, are somewhere between multi-month activities outside their core-competencies to impossible for private actors.

2) The vast bulk of private charities segment their 'market' in various ways that leaves gaps. That's fine, but it isn't going to "mostly solve" the issues caused by society-wide economic failures.

3) Because the problems are so varied, coordination reaps substantial benefits. Social workers talking to cleanup crews talking to mental health talking to cops is a dynamic that your local churches are not equipped to take part in.

Kneejerk antigovernment bias is a national pastime, I know. I'll even play along when it is valid. But the idea that the Salvation Army is going to spring to the rescue is fantasy.

Re: The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

#107

Long-time Seattle resident here who volunteered for several years in the homeless community. Homelessness has always been a thing in Seattle, but has definitely become a much larger issue in the past five years. I'll spare my thoughts on any number of reasons as to why we got here as a city, but will say I think we are doing a terrible disservice to actually finding a solution by lumping "anyone who doesn't have a ho…

There's some merit to this but I'd say it's still a little off the mark. Homelessness is a condition, how people got there is one thing, the main tools to "fix it" are fairly straightforward: give people housing. Dealing with everything else (mental health issues, drug addiction, etc.) can be dealt with separately, and will be vastly easier without having the fundamental problem of homelessness.

> give people housing

Except now you'll just attract homeless folks from outside of your region. The city with the best homeless program will attract the most homeless folks--all paid for by that city's taxpayers.

This is why I maintain the only way to address the problem is at the federal levelm. They should at least be the ones who bankroll the whole operation. It shouldn't be the city's responsibility to fund the fix--homeless people can move anywhere in the country and it isn't fair for local taxpayers to foot the bill. Citizens country-wide should pay for a solution.

Re: The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

#108
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, makes sense. Thank you for the reply. Where it's personally frustrating for me: I've sold two companies in my life, and saw my tax rate jump from the lowest to the highest. I'm fine with that. I did well and despite all the work I put in, I recognize the amount of good fortune that was involved - and I'm perfectly happy to give back more because it affects me less, and because it's my fair share. I recognize th…

> I'm perfectly happy to give back more If you really feel that way, charitable organizations can effectively distribute donations far more efficiently and effectively than any government organization has ever been able to. I suspect that if all of the people who say they feel the same way did just voluntarily donate what they considered their own fair share to charity, the homeless crisis would be mostly solved.

A few quick things - one, what evidence do you have that charities are so much better at distributing resources than governments?

Two, many people don't think rich people should be the ones choosing how we help those in need and who should qualify for that help. Popular causes will get more money, and that often times doesn't line up with what is actually needed.

Third, you seem to completely ignore the problem of collective action. Saying "why don't you just give your own money and leave everyone else alone" is not a way to accomplish things in a society.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_action_problem

Re: The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

#109

I fairly often comment on the topic of homelessness. I am routinely told on HN that the high cost of housing is unrelated to the rise in homelessness. This article states otherwise and I quoted it here: https://streetlifesolutions.blogspot.com/2018/11/the-clear-c... Some things I routinely talk about: This country tore down up to 80 percent of SROs over the course of a couple of decades, probably because the Baby Boo…

Maybe they should call it something more real like "Rent you can afford with two weeks of minimum wage work".

Re: The Homeless Crisis Is Getting Worse in America’s Richest Cities

#110
post #81
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually spending targeting homelessness is fairly minimal. So, IMO it’s hard to call it a money pit.

Is that not due to simply not spending?

If you estimate ~20k per homeless person per year * 550,000 homes in the US you get on the order of 11 Billion dollars per year out of something like 7,150 Billion of total government spending.

On the other hand if you look at social security as one way to reduce homelessness it’s vastly more expensive.

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