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Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

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Re: Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a study which I cannot locate right now which discussed that one of the substantial impacts of a Walmart moving into a town was that all the "community leadership" type jobs left. Things like accountants and office admins and other business professionals. This was because the small businesses Walmart replaced were the ones that used these services locally. Walmart did these things at it's corporate office f…

It's not wrong, a LOT of tech companies have opened up support offices in Texas. The inexplicable thing is why engineering stays in SV.

VCs are lazy and dont like traveling more than an hour

Re: Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, it's a feature of the real world system for which the term capitalism was coined by it's 19th Century critics, and it's been a prominent feature of every real example (including, to a varying extent, the modern mixed economies that have completely replaced the original system named “capitalism”, but retain significant elements of its structure, and are often referred to as “capitalism”.) Capitalism isn't reall…

> I am not really wanting to get into a debate about Marxism. However the ideas that have spawed from Marxism probably killed 100 million people last century. So I don't really give much credence to them and you aren't going to convince me otherwise. I don't believe anyone mentioned Marxism or Communism anywhere in this thread. But no matter... I'd love to hear an analysis of all deaths that capitalism has caused. An…

Critiques of Capitalism was specifically mentioned, Marx is pretty much the most influential one.

Capitalism has brought a huge population of the world out of poverty in the last century.

Wars over resources isn't capitalism, most starvation last century was caused by communism. Lack of medical care, I have no idea what this has to do with free trade and property rights. On the subject of healthcare, I live in the UK and the NHS fails to deliver adequate care and constantly doesn't meet targets, even though there is an ever increasing amount of tax payers money invested in it. So social healthcare doesn't work and the NHS is probably one of the better examples in the world.

Capitalism is just the results of free trade and property rights.

> And.. the citizens end up trading one master (capitalist) for another (communist overseer).

What are you talking about? If you live in a capitalist system in the west you have individual rights and property rights. Nobody is your master, anyone can start their own business and be their own boss.

If you wanna work for a large megacorp so be it. Not for me, I started my own small IT business. I make enough monthly to pay myself a decent pension (funded by myself), my own healthcare and buy myself property next year (just a regular house nothing fancy but it is mine, I won't be renting anymore if all goes well).

> The rest of this "Crony" vs Corporate" seems like a word definition war. How about some good definitions before we move on

I have given the correct definitions and have linked or quoted them in my replies. You can look them up, I have used the common definitions. Our other friend I have no idea what definitions he was using.

Re: Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

#213
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Anecdotally I've heard that we need a lot less fire fighting these days because fires don't spread the same way anymore. Hmm. In California? No. [Ok, the bit about "spread[ing] the same way" may be relevant, but not in the implied direction. And yes, the need for large numbers of firefighters in an emergency undoubtably makes planning/costs tricky.]

I assume you are referencing the forest fires? As I understand it city fire fighters are a rather different profession. (But no, no one involved in that discussion was from California)

Re firefighters: my understanding is that local fire departments from all over the state send assistance to large fires, see, e.g., https://abc30.com/local-fire-departments-assisting-in-wildfi...

I'm confused by "(But no, no one involved in that discussion was from California)" in the context of a discussion about salaries in Silicon Valley...

Edit: and from out of state too: https://www.stgeorgeutah.com/news/archive/2018/11/11/cgb-13-...

Re: Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not really wanting to get into a debate about Marxism. However the ideas that have spawed from Marxism probably killed 100 million people last century. So I don't really give much credence to them and you aren't going to convince me otherwise. I don't believe anyone mentioned Marxism or Communism anywhere in this thread. But no matter... I'd love to hear an analysis of all deaths that capitalism has caused. An…

Critiques of Capitalism was specifically mentioned, Marx is pretty much the most influential one. Capitalism has brought a huge population of the world out of poverty in the last century. Wars over resources isn't capitalism, most starvation last century was caused by communism. Lack of medical care, I have no idea what this has to do with free trade and property rights. On the subject of healthcare, I live in the UK…

> Critiques of Capitalism was specifically mentioned, Marx is pretty much the most influential one.

Again, one can critique a system (Capitalism) without forwarding some other system (Communism).

> Capitalism has brought a huge population of the world out of poverty in the last century.

And we can't even AB test this. We don't know how it would have fared with strong constitutional monarchies, or more democracy, or what-have-you.

This statement is a tautology. It sounds good to capitalists, but is effectively unprovable against other systems we have.

> Wars over resources isn't capitalism, most starvation last century was caused by communism. Lack of medical care, I have no idea what this has to do with free trade and property rights. On the subject of healthcare, I live in the UK and the NHS fails to deliver adequate care and constantly doesn't meet targets, even though there is an ever increasing amount of tax payers money invested in it. So social healthcare doesn't work and the NHS is probably one of the better examples in the world.

Again, when capitalists compare deaths, its deflected and obfuscated with other justifications that it isn't indeed capitalism that causes it. But as you ask, what does this have to do with "free trade and property rights"? Its because free trade and property rights are the initial conditions. Yet when we look at first and second derivatives of where those rules lead, it leads to the abuses and horrific uses of power. Communists have no corner on violence, btw. The US military was moved in multiple times to bust up worker protests and strikes... And they usually killed quite a few people. Again, 2nd derivative action.

And about NHS, "So social healthcare doesn't work and the NHS is probably one of the better examples in the world." Let me get this straight - -because 1 system has "failed" (your definition of failure, undefined), that NO social healthcare can work? Pretty sure there's a problem with that logic.

> Capitalism is just the results of free trade and property rights.

As initial conditions, sure. I'm talking about how those base rules expand and lead to logical rules from them. You've seen Conway's Game of Life? They are simple rules as well, but contain all sorts of emergent behavior. I'm only saying that the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and further derived rules of capitalism are not healthy and good for society.

I'm not positing communism. If anything, I would put forth worker cooperatives as a possible interim solution. That would change the dynamic of work from a dictatorship to that of democracy. Democracies aren't always better, but dictatorships are usually regarded as terrible things.

> If you wanna work for a large megacorp so be it. Not for me, I started my own small IT business. I make enough monthly to pay myself a decent pension (funded by myself), my own healthcare and buy myself property next year (just a regular house nothing fancy but it is mine, I won't be renting anymore if all goes well).

Maybe we aren't clear. When I talk about capitalists, I'm not taking of an IT worker, retail worker, or even a middle manager. I'm talking of the people/organizations that own the bulk of property and/or own most the money or resources. I'm talking "banking crisis, 2008" type of people/orgs. Those are the capitalists.

In the end, you may do better or worse than other IT workers. I hope you do well. But, the ugly truth is that you are (in the UK) fighting against others in your same boat, for the few scraps. And that fighting is what fractures us. We see the same with Uber (cab), that pits driver against driver, for the same few scraps.

Re: Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

#215
post #34

I started a nonprofit 2 years ago (garagescript.org) that hires low income people in San Jose and their full time job is to learn how to code and teach new students. Our nonprofit started off with 20 students, most were making about 25k/year and had no coding experience. I paid each of them 2k / month to quit their jobs and focus on coding full time. From the original 20 students, 6 are left. The other 14 are all ful…

And how did you get back the original investment of 2k$/month?

When it comes to nonprofits, donations and goodwill are not the same as investments.

Re: Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I constrained my argument to only consider children ages 0-12. Regardless of whether "people actually demand the education the public system forces upon them," people do demand a safe, stimulating place to put their very young kids while they go to work.

> This is why I constrained my argument to only consider children ages 0-12. I don't see how that changes anything regarding what I said. > Regardless of whether "people actually demand the education the public system forces upon them," people do demand a safe, stimulating place to put their very young kids while they go to work. That's still not demand in the economic sense. People can "verbally" demand anything the…

If $1300-$2100/month is not a "demand" in the economic sense, what is?

https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-daycare-cost-in-the-Bay-...

Re: Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

#217
post #6

The author almost noticed Simpson's paradox: > Surprisingly, the UC Santa Cruz study suggests that employment in low wage industries is growing. The share of worker in jobs considered low-wage in 1997 grew 25 percent over the next 20 years, while the percent working in middle- and high-wage jobs declined. The problem isn't that wages are dropping for certain work; the problem is that middle-wage jobs are being automa…

the jobs that are mentioned in the article that are being hit the hardest are teachers, firefighters, caretakers and so forth. How many of those have been automated away? It seems that tech workers in the valley have found their own analog to blaming immigrants for downward wage pressure, their particular boogeyman seems to be the robots. No, the answer is much more trivial. As the article points out, the huge influx…

"Cost of living" increases hit hard, but it's not a wage drop. It's an extra point included in the article, not the thesis, which is about wage drops.

The article does NOT say that teachers and firefighters are seeing wage cuts.

> Workers in low and middle income jobs, such as teachers and firefighters or nannies and cooks, are key to the local economy.

teachers and firefighters are middle income, and are the core of that bracket who have demand inelasticity. Store clerks do not enjoy that, so they just lose their middle-income jobs.

Re: Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't make up fake stats. I live in Manhattan and the idea that a full third of the real estate here is empty is laughable. Have you ever visited?? As my sibling comment points out, the real rate (as determined by actual data) is less than 5%.

I think you might be confusing rental property that is unrented vs property that is not in the market but not physically occupied. "about 30 percent of the more than 5,000 apartments are routinely vacant for more than 10 months a year" [1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/nyregion/more-apartments-...

That's in the tiny fraction of real estate that is luxury housing owned by the unfathomably wealthy.

The article itself says > Among all of the 845,000 apartments and houses in Manhattan, 102,000 were identified as vacant in the 2005-9 American Community Survey.

The numbers are a bit muddied, because the article hints but doesn't ivestigate the seasonal bias in vacancy:

> Of those, about 33,000 — or about 1 in every 25 Manhattan homes — had an owner or renter who lived there less than two months of the year.

Re: Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Critiques of Capitalism was specifically mentioned, Marx is pretty much the most influential one. Capitalism has brought a huge population of the world out of poverty in the last century. Wars over resources isn't capitalism, most starvation last century was caused by communism. Lack of medical care, I have no idea what this has to do with free trade and property rights. On the subject of healthcare, I live in the UK…

> Critiques of Capitalism was specifically mentioned, Marx is pretty much the most influential one. Again, one can critique a system (Capitalism) without forwarding some other system (Communism). > Capitalism has brought a huge population of the world out of poverty in the last century. And we can't even AB test this. We don't know how it would have fared with strong constitutional monarchies, or more democracy, or w…

TBH mate. It seems you are incapable of having a sensible discussion about any of this. You seem to use your own definitions to words that don't match up with any sensible term that can be found online anywhere and then claim I haven't defined a success criteria when I did. This will be my last post to you.

1. The deaths under communism (of which there were millions were directly caused by communism). In the Soviet Union, Land was taken from the peasants that had finally got themselves some property and those that protested were killed. The land was then given to those that didn't know how to farm it. Millions died.

In Maoist china there was "The great leap forward" again there was a massive famine because of Agricultural collectivisation. Part of this was the four pests campaign. Millions died, we are talking 25-40 million people.

I am not even counting things like the holodomore yet.

All of these were a direct consequences of the collectivisation and tyrannical communist system.

Your complaints about the negatives of capitalism are simply vagaries about secondary effects and the odd time that Western powers have been tyrannical. It is neither convincing or provides a base for sensible discussion. it is simply what-aboutery when you consider the number of people that perished. Also you are using the term capitalist incorrectly yet again.

As for the claim am obfuscating issues away. I can point directly to policies/order made by tyrants that led to the death or millions. In response I get vagaries back about secondary effects.

This sort of comparison is a complete nonsense.

2 Regarding the NHS and to quote you "your definition of failure, undefined". I had defined it. They had consistently missed targets for a number of years despite cash injections. Almost anyone sensible would say that was a failure.

3. Again more vagaries about secondary effects. This is how you fix those secondary effects, you put in sensible legislation / regulation. BTW the un-intended consequence of the "Four pest campaign" is that many well known insects that destroyed crops had no natural predators (in this case I believe it was sparrows IIRC). So the unintended consequence of a policy I can directly point that killed 25-40 million people, yet you present to be vagaries about health care and wars which maybe tangentially related to the economics of capitalism.

Read some history, read some philosophy and get your terminology correct please.

4.

> I'm talking of the people/organizations that own the bulk of property and/or own most the money or resources. I'm talking "banking crisis, 2008" type of people/orgs. Those are the capitalists.

You are using the term capitalists incorrectly yet again. A capitalist is some that simply believes in free trade, wage labour and the pre-requisites like individual rights and property rights. You mean a social political elite and banking cartels. BTW your views align more with Steve Bannon btw.

5. Thank you for the well wishes. I have taken my destiny into my own hands. I work freelance and my fortunes are wholly up to me. If it doesn't work out well there is a whole world of opportunities out there I am a fairly smart person.

Re: Silicon Valley wages have dropped for non-tech jobs

#220
post #143
post #28

Isn’t it ironic that the rates of poverty are increasing in possibly the wealthiest region in the world?

> Isn’t it ironic that the rates of poverty are increasing in possibly the wealthiest region in the world? Not really - a natural side effect of corporations not paying their fair share in taxes, alongside employees who are compensated in ways (stock options) where large chunks of their salary are untaxable by local governments. (It's my understanding it's much harder for local governments to tax stock options as cap…

Options are a pretty small part of CA income. Most of CA techie equity is in RSUs. CA taxes capital gains if the gains are realized in CA, which happens unless the owner retires out of state before realzing. CA has close to the highest tax in the country, and it pro-rata taxes RSUs even if they vests after the earner leaves California.
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