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How cities can fix tourism hell

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Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#71

Post by akvadrako »

pj_mukh wrote: post #35
buboard wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but if it's not enough to put them off, the tax doesn't work

The idea isn't to put them off, that seems like a mindlessly cynical goal. Build the infrastructure to support the larger numbers. If the infrastructure needs to discriminate against tourists, that's fine too (e.g. added trains for tourists vs. commuters), new digital methods tool can allow for this.

No, the idea is to put them off. It's basically impossible to "build infrastructure" to support them, whatever that means. There is no more room for trains or even sidewalks, so it would mean totally changing the cities into something else.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#72

Post by orangecat »

longerthoughts wrote: post #47
forrestthewoods wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is avoiding travel because of costs? Almost everyone. How much would a trip's cost be reduced with the elimination of tourist taxes? Totally depends. It's not the biggest cost. But it ain't zero either. They call it nickel-and-dime for a reason.

I very clearly did not ask who avoids travel because of total costs. The question is in what case does somebody avoid booking a trip that they otherwise would’ve taken because they just can’t stomach the tourist taxes once they’re already paying hundreds for flights and lodging?

The question is in what case does somebody avoid booking a trip that they otherwise would’ve taken because they just can’t stomach the tourist taxes once they’re already paying hundreds for flights and lodging?

Marginal customers always exist. If you raise prices by a small amount, most customers will ignore it, but a small percentage won't. That's why the thing you bought for $X didn't cost $(X*1.01) instead.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#73

Post by bobthepanda »

mc32 wrote: post #64
elbasti wrote: post #3

At risk of being labeled a "neoliberal idealist," why isn't the answer here simply taxing tourists more? Pigovian taxes have been a thing for fifty years, yet they are still seldom used. It seems like such an obvious solution to me that the fact it's not used more often (ex: towns banning airbnb vs taxing it) suggests to me that I'm missing something obvious.

Bhutan provides an example of capping the tourists and charging a hefty visa fee for visitors. Tourism is not a human right and as such it's a luxury. It taxes all natural resources and exacerbates pollution (more disposable items and short lived items). Therefore, something akin to Bhutan could work for places which feel overwhelmed by tourists. (not proposing all places instate this, but rather places where the foo…

IIRC, Saudi Arabia does something similar with the Hajj, which they have to do because it's one of the largest annual human migrations.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#74

Post by pj_mukh »

akvadrako wrote: post #71
pj_mukh wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea isn't to put them off, that seems like a mindlessly cynical goal. Build the infrastructure to support the larger numbers. If the infrastructure needs to discriminate against tourists, that's fine too (e.g. added trains for tourists vs. commuters), new digital methods tool can allow for this.

No, the idea is to put them off. It's basically impossible to "build infrastructure" to support them, whatever that means. There is no more room for trains or even sidewalks, so it would mean totally changing the cities into something else.

Yes. Cities change. All the time. Why is this suddenly a problem? New train/subway lines are built (even in SF! [1]), sidewalks are widened (car lanes can be collapsed). None of this is new, in fact, this kind of growth and change has been the standard in the last 100 years of urban development. This doesn't stop now.

[1]: https://sf.curbed.com/2018/11/15/18096775/bart-second-crossi...

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#75

Post by geoka9 »

toofy wrote: post #55

I’m a far cry from an economist, but I’m curious if the sharp rise in tourism over the last couple of decades is an indication that people have much more disposable income than we previously had access. As the article mentions, travel and lodging has definitely gotten cheaper, however I still feel like, due to stronger economy and more disposable income, world travel is no longer limited to the obscenely wealthy. If…

I think the rise of social media could be a key factor. We become slaves to our photo streams and fall into the arms race of who's got a cooler vacation photo set. Otherwise why would we suffer through huge crowds and lines everywhere we go and then come back for more?

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#76

Post by klipt »

bobthepanda wrote: post #73
mc32 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bhutan provides an example of capping the tourists and charging a hefty visa fee for visitors. Tourism is not a human right and as such it's a luxury. It taxes all natural resources and exacerbates pollution (more disposable items and short lived items). Therefore, something akin to Bhutan could work for places which feel overwhelmed by tourists. (not proposing all places instate this, but rather places where the foo…

IIRC, Saudi Arabia does something similar with the Hajj, which they have to do because it's one of the largest annual human migrations.

An Arabian started a religion that mandates visiting Arabia. Now that's advertising!

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#77

Post by mrep »

linkregister wrote: post #38
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At risk of being labeled a "neoliberal idealist," why isn't the answer here simply taxing tourists more? Because that's really tricky to do without reducing the town to just tourism. Some people forget that in tourist towns there are also people who live, who have families and friends and some of their activities look very much like tourism. Sure, you can try to do all kinds of things to work around this but ultima…

> ultimately the solution of taxing tourists does not work well in practice. Got any examples? Many cities in the world have tourism taxes, charged as a per-night fee added to hotel bills. Miami has a beach fee for tourists. Somehow, despite no income tax, Miami manages to stay solvent.

> Many cities in the world have tourism taxes, charged as a per-night fee added to hotel bills.

How do they differentiate between business travelers and tourists or do they just pass on the fees to both?

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#78

Post by mrep »

aarroyoc wrote: post #26
alexashka wrote: post #19

Can somebody explain what problems tourists are creating? I live in Toronto and was surprised to hear that the population doubles during the summer, because of a large number of tourists. Having spent most of my life here, and some of it right next to the biggest tourist attractions - I never thought any of it was a problem. It hasn't affected my quality of life in any way that I'm aware of.

The tourist hell mostly affects European cities, which at the same time are usually denser and have a more problematic transport. In some European cities, native people can't pay the rent to live in reasonable places because tourists will pay more. This has been a problem in Spain (Barcelona & Madrid) and both municipalities are working on it, but it's difficult. At the same time, a lot of stores became tourist speci…

> The tourist hell mostly affects European cities, which at the same time are usually denser and have a more problematic transport. In some European cities, native people can't pay the rent to live in reasonable places because tourists will pay more.

Interesting, as a born and raised American, I find it odd that I keep seeing people praise europe about how great their public transportation and living wages are and yet you claim both suddenly fail when you get some tourists who spend money in your town?

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#79

Post by aaron695 »

mc32 wrote: post #64
elbasti wrote: post #3

At risk of being labeled a "neoliberal idealist," why isn't the answer here simply taxing tourists more? Pigovian taxes have been a thing for fifty years, yet they are still seldom used. It seems like such an obvious solution to me that the fact it's not used more often (ex: towns banning airbnb vs taxing it) suggests to me that I'm missing something obvious.

Bhutan provides an example of capping the tourists and charging a hefty visa fee for visitors. Tourism is not a human right and as such it's a luxury. It taxes all natural resources and exacerbates pollution (more disposable items and short lived items). Therefore, something akin to Bhutan could work for places which feel overwhelmed by tourists. (not proposing all places instate this, but rather places where the foo…

> Tourism is not a human right and as such it's a luxury.

The right to traverse the planet as a human being is a fundamental right.

The concept you or anyone has the right through the force of arms to confine people is horrific.

Bhutan might be a nice little zoo atm, but it's happiness index is very low by world standards and it's life expectancy is also low by world standards.

The Zoo of Bhutan owned by its king might be nice for the mega rich to have to visit, but it's not so nice for its citizens.

The king might be doing better than other countries in the region, but you'd have to make the case it's is the least worst option. I'm not convinced.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#80

Post by yifanl »

mrep wrote: post #78
aarroyoc wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tourist hell mostly affects European cities, which at the same time are usually denser and have a more problematic transport. In some European cities, native people can't pay the rent to live in reasonable places because tourists will pay more. This has been a problem in Spain (Barcelona & Madrid) and both municipalities are working on it, but it's difficult. At the same time, a lot of stores became tourist speci…

> The tourist hell mostly affects European cities, which at the same time are usually denser and have a more problematic transport. In some European cities, native people can't pay the rent to live in reasonable places because tourists will pay more. Interesting, as a born and raised American, I find it odd that I keep seeing people praise europe about how great their public transportation and living wages are and ye…

Obviously, the public transportation system was implemented based on the number of local residents.

I imagine that the influx of tourists is well above that number.

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