How cities can fix tourism hell • Hacker News Board

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#21

Post by elbasti » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 11:28 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #16

elbasti wrote: post #3

At risk of being labeled a "neoliberal idealist," why isn't the answer here simply taxing tourists more? Pigovian taxes have been a thing for fifty years, yet they are still seldom used. It seems like such an obvious solution to me that the fact it's not used more often (ex: towns banning airbnb vs taxing it) suggests to me that I'm missing something obvious.

> At risk of being labeled a "neoliberal idealist," why isn't the answer here simply taxing tourists more? Because that's really tricky to do without reducing the town to just tourism. Some people forget that in tourist towns there are also people who live, who have families and friends and some of their activities look very much like tourism. Sure, you can try to do all kinds of things to work around this but ultima…

Quite the opposite. If the worry is "too much tourists" well, just raise the tax until you have the desire amount of tourists! (and a lot more money in the coffers).

What am I missing here?

As an example, the country of Bhutan has zero desire for tourists, but instead of banning them they just charge a $250USD tax per day.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#22

Post by tompccs » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 11:33 PM UTC

Gadgets? No thanks. The fundamental problem with tourism isn't crowds (although they are unpleasant), it's inflation - tourists have more money to spend and businesses will naturally align themselves to suck up that money. Compare with situation of huge student populations in small towns in UK: their interests don't align with the incumbent community, therefore tension ensues. The effect is two-fold: increased prices for consumers and increased rent for businesses (with useful places like hardware shops, local pubs and locksmiths being pushed out by Steak and Lobster and Angus Steak House). Using IoT to spread tourists around the city (however that's supposed to work) just brings the problem to more and more communities. London turning into the next Venice isn't going to be stopped by some techies in SV (who, incidentally, ruined up San Francisco in a similar manner to the way tourists are doing so here).

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#23

Post by closeparen » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 11:33 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #20

elbasti wrote: post #3

At risk of being labeled a "neoliberal idealist," why isn't the answer here simply taxing tourists more? Pigovian taxes have been a thing for fifty years, yet they are still seldom used. It seems like such an obvious solution to me that the fact it's not used more often (ex: towns banning airbnb vs taxing it) suggests to me that I'm missing something obvious.

In the USA I think the general populace is tax averse. Passing a new tax even one that could arguably be good for the local population or region, is a good way to get unelected, even in very liberal states. Local governments are incredibly susceptible to this, but it very clearly plays out nationally as well. The idea that government can “do good” in the USA is very co troversial at best. This is a great article abou…

This is why hotel taxes are popular. Voters don’t pay them.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#24

Post by forrestthewoods » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 11:35 PM UTC

elbasti wrote: post #3

At risk of being labeled a "neoliberal idealist," why isn't the answer here simply taxing tourists more? Pigovian taxes have been a thing for fifty years, yet they are still seldom used. It seems like such an obvious solution to me that the fact it's not used more often (ex: towns banning airbnb vs taxing it) suggests to me that I'm missing something obvious.

Gross. Gross gross gross.

Tourists already get taxed. Hotel taxes are huge. It sucks. Traveling for conferences to meet new people and learn new things is soooo expensive and tourist taxes are a big part of why.

Tourist taxes are how you destroy diversity and trap people into the tiny bubble in which they were born. We should be striving for the opposite.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#25

Post by dgzl » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 11:36 PM UTC

gsnedders wrote: post #14

dgzl wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you differentiate a local vs. a tourist? Edit: is that even legal?

It's typically a tax on accommodation, rather than anything else.

That's what I thought. Unfortunately that also affects locals, which diminishes the benefit.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#26

Post by aarroyoc » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 11:37 PM UTC

alexashka wrote: post #19

Can somebody explain what problems tourists are creating? I live in Toronto and was surprised to hear that the population doubles during the summer, because of a large number of tourists. Having spent most of my life here, and some of it right next to the biggest tourist attractions - I never thought any of it was a problem. It hasn't affected my quality of life in any way that I'm aware of.

The tourist hell mostly affects European cities, which at the same time are usually denser and have a more problematic transport.

In some European cities, native people can't pay the rent to live in reasonable places because tourists will pay more. This has been a problem in Spain (Barcelona & Madrid) and both municipalities are working on it, but it's difficult. At the same time, a lot of stores became tourist specific. In the end, you have two cities at the same time, the old and beautiful for tourists, and an outside city for native people, which native people who lived and worked in the old city, don't like.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#27

Post by selectodude » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 11:38 PM UTC

elbasti wrote: post #21

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At risk of being labeled a "neoliberal idealist," why isn't the answer here simply taxing tourists more? Because that's really tricky to do without reducing the town to just tourism. Some people forget that in tourist towns there are also people who live, who have families and friends and some of their activities look very much like tourism. Sure, you can try to do all kinds of things to work around this but ultima…

Quite the opposite. If the worry is "too much tourists" well, just raise the tax until you have the desire amount of tourists! (and a lot more money in the coffers). What am I missing here? As an example, the country of Bhutan has zero desire for tourists, but instead of banning them they just charge a $250USD tax per day .

>but instead of banning them they just charge a $250USD tax per day.

Hard to call that a tax when it includes lodging, a personal guide, a driver with car, food, and entrance fees to the things you go see. All you have to cover while there is tips and alcohol.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#28

Post by CryptoPunk » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 11:39 PM UTC

tompccs wrote: post #22

Gadgets? No thanks. The fundamental problem with tourism isn't crowds (although they are unpleasant), it's inflation - tourists have more money to spend and businesses will naturally align themselves to suck up that money. Compare with situation of huge student populations in small towns in UK: their interests don't align with the incumbent community, therefore tension ensues. The effect is two-fold: increased prices…

That's like thinking that a city exporting its goods to a foreign market with high income consumers causes inflation in the city.

The businesses that cater to this influx of tourist spending employ locals, which pushes up local wages and spending. The goods/services produced are also not scarce. They can be increased in supply. In fact higher volume retail shops result in more economies of scale, which can reduce local prices.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#29

Post by pythonista-82 » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 11:44 PM UTC

alexashka wrote: post #19

Can somebody explain what problems tourists are creating? I live in Toronto and was surprised to hear that the population doubles during the summer, because of a large number of tourists. Having spent most of my life here, and some of it right next to the biggest tourist attractions - I never thought any of it was a problem. It hasn't affected my quality of life in any way that I'm aware of.

Edinburgh born and resident here, our city centre has become a tourist only zone with tartan tat shops, overpriced restaurants and during August (The Fringe) it’s pretty much impossible to move through town due to the amount of people in this small city. There aren’t really any “locals” in the centre any more as most of the flats have been bought up for AirBnB or student flats. AirBnB flats are notorious as “stag party flats” here, their landlords regularly receive complaints from the few who still live in town. The AirBnB landlords are now expanding into traditionally working class areas, as available housing stock in the centre is astronomically expensive...so it’s hard for young people without a deposit to get on the housing ladder. Our rent market is already through the roof due to the popularity of Edinburgh as a place to live now, so it has driven families out. From a city we used to describe as more like a “village” it’s become a depressingly alien place with transient residents.

Re: How cities can fix tourism hell

#30

Post by pj_mukh » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 11:44 PM UTC

frio wrote: post #8

elbasti wrote: post #3

At risk of being labeled a "neoliberal idealist," why isn't the answer here simply taxing tourists more? Pigovian taxes have been a thing for fifty years, yet they are still seldom used. It seems like such an obvious solution to me that the fact it's not used more often (ex: towns banning airbnb vs taxing it) suggests to me that I'm missing something obvious.

Yeah, this is roughly where my thoughts lie. When my partner and I were travelling around Europe, many of the popular cities charged a bed tax — usually only a euro or two a night, so not enough to put us off in anyway, but in aggregate allowing the cities to invest in facilities that could support the tourist influx. Back home, there’s been debate about doing this too. I hope the pro-tax side wins. Our country is su…

"usually only a euro or two a night, so not enough to put us off in anyway, but in aggregate allowing the cities to invest in facilities that could support the tourist influx."

This is exactly the right strategy! And the "infrastructure to support more tourists" is exactly what this article lays out.