UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

Productivity is not just a function of investment.

Spain doesn't form large organizations like they do in Germany and the UK. More people in Germany for example are employed in large organizations wherein they can create more sophisticated products like cars.

Do they have extensive coop/internship programs for young people to work at large organizations?

Is the civil service actually productive?

My experience with our own Spanish office is that they are slack. I would say professionally disorganized. They'd probably just accuse me of bad 'life work balance' , which is fine. But the office hours, long lunches, absenteeism ... nobody really ever seemed to be doing anything. And FYI the work days were long .... Now that is anecdotal - my personal experience, I know that a lot of places hum along obvious, but most of my Spanish friends would concur with what I'm saying though probably not my language. Call it weather, culture, whatever but there's a different culture outlook and this cannot be ignored.

Here's a good take that matched my sentiment [1]

The problem with this 'investment' argument as it relates to Greece, Spain etc. is that only systems that are prepared for investment can possibly make good with it.

Think of a company like a startup: should every startup receive $100M - would that make everyone successful? No - because most startups don't have 'product market fit' and they are not creating value. If a nation has the wherewithal and are ready for investment, well that's another thing. And of course consider how that capital is distributed ... by governments often to their civil servants and pensioners, which might be good, but it's also not exactly going to result in any kind of industrial development.

[1] https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/12/17/inenglish/1418816737_69...

Where do they get that money to spend?

Money spent by individuals and companies is usually better spent than that by the government. (given a law-abiding high trust society)

Money that passes through government is not magically imbued with some extra quality. More the opposite. Remember that story about it being cheaper to hire a taxi than go by train for two or passengers in Greece? That the Greek train system had more employees than passengers and lost a billion per year?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-16834815

Of course I don't want to go overboard here; money spent wisely by the government on the public good can be more effectively (productively) than the individual or company.

Students can’t bring dependants without showing they are financially capable to support them, spouses and children of work permit holders are dependents which also means that their sponsor must meet base salary requirements + additional requirements for each dependent.

The rest are not here legally, are in the process of being deported or are in process of getting a permit so why the fuck would they have access to public funds in the first place?

I'd prefer my money went to a central budget and was used effectively at a country level :)

Destitution was not "imposed" to them. While I agree there are issues with the Euro zone/lack of a fiscal union, the end problem is lack of money going in. That shows up as austerity in this case BUT would have shown up as devaluations/debt/inflation in other cases. Coming from a 3rd world country I can say I have experience in this unfortunately (then the "evil guys" are the IMF, etc).

> Did the cleaners at the finance ministry deserve to be fired because of arbitrary austerity? Does a grandmother in Athens who worked and paid into a pension all her life deserve a cut in her pension from €1300 to €600 a month? Does the widow of ansailor deserve cuts from €1900 to €650 a month because of a financial crisis far away?

It's not "fair", and some of those issues are just a fundamental lack of jobs/work (same thing happens anywhere) but the issue is not with them. However it's easier to cut salaries/earnings of those people in your example while keeping the privileges of the higher levels. (See for example faculty/administration wage gap in American universities)

> it should be about getting Greece back on its feet so it can contribute. The same way the EU helped Spain after Franco or Ireland after the troubles.

Agreed, and austerity is not good in itself, it's more like making a fat person starve (which sucks and everybody hates) instead of making them eat better and exercise more (but if they don't do it themselves, then what).