UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says • Hacker News Board

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#81

Post by RobertoG » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 5:28 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #43

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Greece and Spain, the youth unemployment goes hand to hand with the belt tightening.

Youth unemployment goes hand in hand with dysfunctional economies. The government does not create jobs by mass spending. In Canada we have marginally less 'government spending' and lower taxes and we have a very low unemployment rate. Now, a country certainly could operate effectively with higher rates of government spending, but my point is that this is not really the factor. Spain does not have a competitive econom…

"Spain does not have a competitive economy and that's that."

Competitive how? Salaries are lower than in Canada.

Competitive with who? Do you mean the productivity is low? That's a function of industry development, that is impossible without investment.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#82

Post by dogma1138 » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 6:05 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #75

dingaling wrote: post #16

Regardless of the actual story, which I do feel has merit, there are examples of why it is perilous to rely on one news source: "whose family couldn’t get school meals in Dumfries, Scotland, because of their immigration status" Actually they couldn't get free school meals, just like anyone else with a household income over £16k. A subtle omission but one that makes it sound like they were excluded from food entirely:…

> just like anyone else with a household income over £16k You've assumed that this child has been refused free school meals because of their financial status. The rapporteur is talking about the mis-application of "no recourse to public funds" rules. A family that has NRPF should still be able to get free school meals, but sometimes the schools don't understand this. This is a family who is poor, and who should be ge…

No recourse to public funds applies to only specific work immigration permits all of which would have salary requirements that would make them ineligible to receive these benefits in the first place.

In fact applying for or using public funds while on an NRPF visa violates its terms and could result in deportation.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#83

Post by repolfx » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

sys_64738 wrote: post #74

matthewmacleod wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really the only choice? The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Part of the reason for that is a long period of generally pro-business, economically conservative government. That's good in many ways, because in a modern economy, business and investment is needed to drive improvements in individual living standards. But doing that relies on a sensible long-term strategy that can be used to achieve…

> The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. There are two parts to England: London and not London. All the money is centered in the capital and the rest of the country is neglected. House prices in London are driven up to insane levels due to the money laundering through real estate transactions for empty housing. The majority of the working class people in England live in poverty.

That's a fascinating definition of poverty. It's certainly not an internationally recognised one. Have you ever been to England? People in Birmingham or Manchester are certainly not living in poverty by any reasonable definition of the term.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#84

Post by repolfx » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

raesene9 wrote: post #51

chrisseaton wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in that they want two divergent things, "better public services" and "low taxation" They think this can be achieved be being more efficient (all the newspaper articles about NHS wastage and middle managers), and spending less money on things they don't want (overseas aid is a common example.) So the two things aren't necessarily at odds. > unless you believe in trickle down economics! I think a lot of people do. >…

I'm not sure about the successful business piece. Look at the protests over tax dodging by companies. I'd say that kind of attitude is common in the US, but less so in the UK. Albeit I'm seeing things from a Scottish rather than English perspective, but I've not seen an appetite for lower company taxes.. My guess for continued support of this kind of policy is that people think other things are more important (e.g. b…

Company taxes are being lowered because last time that was done, tax take went up not down. That is lower corporation tax = more tax revenue and it's revenue that matters.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#85

Post by repolfx » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 6:26 PM UTC

EliRivers wrote: post #59

raesene9 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a real shame that the concept of raising certain taxes in the UK (specifically income tax and corporation tax) has become an anathema to british politicians. We still need to get the money from somewhere, so instead of fairly increasing progressive taxes, we get lots of little (often unfair) hidden tax rises and huge cuts in public spending. The weird part is, the british public go along with this. The Conservat…

I'm so sick of receiving tax cuts I don't need and will literally never notice, alongside cuts to public services that some people really really need being cut, that the Tory party will never win my vote. Well, I say never; never is a long time, but as long as they keep trying to win my favour by cutting my taxes, they can get bent. I'm not some kind of Pavlovian econo-rational robot, and I object to them treating me…

Why don't you just donate the extra money you don't need to charity instead? There's no obligation to fund all social activities through tax.

For instance if you don't need a few hundred pounds per year, why not buy a friend private health insurance.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#86

Post by repolfx » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 6:29 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #24

emmelaich wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was already wrecked and heading for a cliff. Austerity brings the cliff closer and reduces it's height. You'll notice the fall and blame austerity but it's better than the alternative.

Austerity stunts growth - it's only a short-term solution. In your analogy, it only pushed the cliff further away. The cliff is still there, it's still as steep and still as high and we will still, inevitably, fall off it and suffer the consequences. "We" (I'm Greek) as in those of us who haven't yet crashed- haven't yet been rendered homeless, or forced to live hand-to-mouth, supported by soup kitchens and community…

Austerity increases economic growth. Government spending isn't "growth" because it's funded by taxation - unless it's funded by borrowing, in which case it's only a temporary growth spike that must be offset by contraction later, as tax revenues are diverted into repayments and interest. In the long run all growth comes from the private sector.

In other words you're saying the exact opposite of what conventional economics says here - massive levels of borrow and spend is exactly why the Greek economy is so bad, and austerity on an equally massive scale is the only long term solution. When the Greek state is a smaller proportion of the economy, actual growth can occur.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#87

Post by repolfx » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

jahaja wrote: post #57

sonnyblarney wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's lovely how bottom-up democratic everything becomes as soon as blame and punishment is being thrown about." --> The Greeks, collectively are responsible for their own destiny, and their problems are essentially of their own making. "as blame and punishment" Your application of such emotional sentiment I think is hiding the reality from you. There is no 'blame'. There is no 'punishment'. There is just reality . T…

Really? There's some objective reality now in economics and politics? To add insult to injury you also imply that they just haven't been bothered yet to simply fix themselves? I'm sorry, but that's a pathetic reply.

Why is it pathetic? It does reflect a very real reality. And yes there are "objective realities" in economics and politics and always have been. In economics the objective reality is resource limits. In politics, votes.

Have you ever investigated the Greek situation? The country is a basket case of epic proportions. The best description I ever saw of it is "a third world country temporarily able to pretend it's not due to the EU".

Tax collection has already been mentioned. There are many other problems. For instance in most countries workers retire at 65. In theory so do Greeks. But not in practice: Greece has the notion of a "arduous and unhealthy job" which lets you retire at 50. Some of the jobs considered so bad you can retire a decade or more early, on a full pension, include trombonist, bakers, masseuses, hairdressers (this job also qualifies as dangerous!), and pastry chefs.

The notion that Greeks are hard working is systematically undermined by facts about their own laws. The country lived off borrowed money for many years, and is now being brought back to something resembling the correct level of wealth given their laws and economic fundamentals.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#88

Post by DanBC » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 6:58 PM UTC

dogma1138 wrote: post #82

DanBC wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just like anyone else with a household income over £16k You've assumed that this child has been refused free school meals because of their financial status. The rapporteur is talking about the mis-application of "no recourse to public funds" rules. A family that has NRPF should still be able to get free school meals, but sometimes the schools don't understand this. This is a family who is poor, and who should be ge…

No recourse to public funds applies to only specific work immigration permits all of which would have salary requirements that would make them ineligible to receive these benefits in the first place. In fact applying for or using public funds while on an NRPF visa violates its terms and could result in deportation.

> No recourse to public funds applies to only specific work immigration permits

No it doesn't.

It can apply to students, spouses, people who are granted leave on the basis of family or private life, to people who have exhausted their appeals to leave, to asylum seekers; etc.

http://www.nrpfnetwork.org.uk/information/Pages/asylum-seeke...

https://www.childrenslegalcentre.com/resources/no-recourse-p...

This hits children because free school meals are sometimes gatewayed by access to child tax credit or working tax credit, and those are public funds.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#89

Post by jahaja » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 7:06 PM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #87

jahaja wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? There's some objective reality now in economics and politics? To add insult to injury you also imply that they just haven't been bothered yet to simply fix themselves? I'm sorry, but that's a pathetic reply.

Why is it pathetic? It does reflect a very real reality. And yes there are "objective realities" in economics and politics and always have been. In economics the objective reality is resource limits. In politics, votes. Have you ever investigated the Greek situation? The country is a basket case of epic proportions. The best description I ever saw of it is "a third world country temporarily able to pretend it's not d…

To write a good reply to this would take some time and effort that I'm not willing to spend on someone with the comment history you have I'm afraid. The common best case scenario seem to be that you just stop replying.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#90

Post by DanBC » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 7:11 PM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #85

EliRivers wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm so sick of receiving tax cuts I don't need and will literally never notice, alongside cuts to public services that some people really really need being cut, that the Tory party will never win my vote. Well, I say never; never is a long time, but as long as they keep trying to win my favour by cutting my taxes, they can get bent. I'm not some kind of Pavlovian econo-rational robot, and I object to them treating me…

Why don't you just donate the extra money you don't need to charity instead? There's no obligation to fund all social activities through tax. For instance if you don't need a few hundred pounds per year, why not buy a friend private health insurance.

Private health in the UK can only exist off the back of the NHS.

The doctors are mostly trained in the NHS system. When a surgery happens there's a reasonable chance that it's in the private floor of an NHS hospital, using a private doctor but the rest of the team is NHS. You'll get a private room. But if anything goes wrong, or if you need more after care, you'll be back in the NHS system.

In the UK private health care is at best queue-jumping, but at worst it's poor quality care from doctors who couldn't keep a job in the NHS.