What an absurd hit piece. The Arizona law simply states that the authorities in Arizona will enforce existing federal law.
Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
31–40 of 41 posts
Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
#32This strikes me as ridiculous fear mongering. The point of the law is "attrition through enforcement" - the idea being that illegal immigrants will leave Arizona if they see that the state is serious about enforcing immigration law. Are we to suppose that people will continue to live in Arizona illegally, given the knowledge that there are now real penalties? The article also uses scare language like "The law could s…
The frightening thing is not this particular application, but the broader concepts of (1) extension of an already draconian police power (2) almost entirely brought about by a private profit motive. Capitalism is an evolutionary process and as such is almost beyond the control of human intentions, so seeing it move against individual liberty is highly alarming.
Whose liberty is being restricted? Illegal immigrants do not have rights to remain in this country.
Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why?
It creates an industry of private businesses that have but one motive: a profit motive. They are therefor motivated to do everything they can to increase incarceration rates to create demand for their services of imprisonment. This article illustrates that pretty clearly. It also creates situations like the corrupt judge/private prison kickback scheme in Pennsylvania recently.(1) We don't need profit-driven companies…
I love how the Hacker News community can spend most of its time obsessed with starting businesses and yet still find time to decry the profit motive as evil.
Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you have a reference for citizens being able to be sent to jail for not carrying papers? I was under the impression that there was nothing in the bill about putting people in jail. I haven't read the link yet, though, so perhaps it has more details.
Even before this law was passed, I can give you citations for American citizens who have actually been deported. I can't see how this law will make deportation any less likely. Here are some of the first few results: * http://www.care2.com/causes/human-rights/blog/mentally-disab... * http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/report_hundre... You may notice a common trend among those wrongly deported: they're mos…
That's definitely a problem (I knew a few people that I've spent time helping out who would probably run the risk of what those links describe), but according to all of those links, the agency in the wrong is ICE, not any particular state - as far as I know (even with the Arizona law), actual deportation and citizenship issues are still handled at the Federal level.
While I don't think that the analysis and worries of "papers please" regarding the Arizona law is wrong (I'm a firm believer in sunlight), I'm not seeing, 6 months in, where the doom and gloom is still coming from. They've revised the laws to remove some of the ambiguities, and I still haven't seen evidence of citizens being throw in jail, nor any onerous requirements on immigrants besides what is defined in Title 9 of the Federal laws.
The big argument today, which the Feds are suing for, seems to be that the state law preempts something which is clearly defined at the Federal level (the aforementioned Title 9). I can understand that particular argument, even if I think it's relatively ridiculous to make (the Feds have had a hard time enforcing the law there, especially in border states where the drug war is bringing more and more criminal elements into the area).
Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
Even before this law was passed, I can give you citations for American citizens who have actually been deported. I can't see how this law will make deportation any less likely. Here are some of the first few results: * http://www.care2.com/causes/human-rights/blog/mentally-disab... * http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/report_hundre... You may notice a common trend among those wrongly deported: they're mos…
That's definitely a problem (I knew a few people that I've spent time helping out who would probably run the risk of what those links describe), but according to all of those links, the agency in the wrong is ICE, not any particular state - as far as I know (even with the Arizona law), actual deportation and citizenship issues are still handled at the Federal level. While I don't think that the analysis and worries o…
Well, of course we're not likely to see "doom and gloom." Those of us who are reasonably intelligent are in remarkably little danger of deportation.
What it will do is overwork ICE, an agency that tries to focus its few resources in deporting dangerous criminals (rather than people who overstayed a visa). Given that ICE is nothing but a cost center as far as politicians are concerned, we can already see what is happening when things are done in a cut-rate manner. This will only continue.
Coupled with that is that Arizona's largest county has right now a publicly-elected sheriff (an election I'm inclined to believe should be removed), who for the last decade or so has conducted immigration raids that grabbed headlines during election season. Said sheriff is also currently under federal investigation (he was under investigation long before Obama came to power, incidentally). This is not a good mix.
While I can sympathize with those who want ICE to do a better job, or who want our immigration laws enforced, I think that comprehensive reform is needed before those laws will be enforceable.
Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
It creates an industry of private businesses that have but one motive: a profit motive. They are therefor motivated to do everything they can to increase incarceration rates to create demand for their services of imprisonment. This article illustrates that pretty clearly. It also creates situations like the corrupt judge/private prison kickback scheme in Pennsylvania recently.(1) We don't need profit-driven companies…
I love how the Hacker News community can spend most of its time obsessed with starting businesses and yet still find time to decry the profit motive as evil.
The profit motive is a powerful incentive, but it is amoral. It can lead to both good and evil effects.
I see nothing unreasonable about wanting to make sure that the profit motive is aligned with out best interests. Conveniently, HN has an article that addresses that very subject:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/09/09/129757852/pop-quiz...
As Tabarrok concludes, "A good social order aligns self-interest with social interest."
Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
#37Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why?
It creates an industry of private businesses that have but one motive: a profit motive. They are therefor motivated to do everything they can to increase incarceration rates to create demand for their services of imprisonment. This article illustrates that pretty clearly. It also creates situations like the corrupt judge/private prison kickback scheme in Pennsylvania recently.(1) We don't need profit-driven companies…
> We don't need profit-driven companies who profit from increased rates of incarceration, ...
Agreed. But perhaps the problem is not with the privitization generally, but the contract the company operates under. It appears to provide the wrong incentives.
> ... they have no reason to really rehabilitate people - they want them back in the system ASAP.
I suppose so. But then has any prison system, anywhere, had significant success with rehabilitation? Is it even possible, for all but a small fraction of prisoners? (Not rhetorical questions.)
Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
It creates an industry of private businesses that have but one motive: a profit motive. They are therefor motivated to do everything they can to increase incarceration rates to create demand for their services of imprisonment. This article illustrates that pretty clearly. It also creates situations like the corrupt judge/private prison kickback scheme in Pennsylvania recently.(1) We don't need profit-driven companies…
> We don't need profit-driven companies who profit from increased rates of incarceration, ... Agreed. But perhaps the problem is not with the privitization generally, but the contract the company operates under. It appears to provide the wrong incentives. > ... they have no reason to really rehabilitate people - they want them back in the system ASAP. I suppose so. But then has any prison system, anywhere, had signif…
> It appears to provide the wrong incentives.
Right. Change the incentives so they get money if the prisoners are healthy on discharge, and also so that they get money for non-recividism (e.g. each prisoner not rearrested gives the prison some bonus).
Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's definitely a problem (I knew a few people that I've spent time helping out who would probably run the risk of what those links describe), but according to all of those links, the agency in the wrong is ICE, not any particular state - as far as I know (even with the Arizona law), actual deportation and citizenship issues are still handled at the Federal level. While I don't think that the analysis and worries o…
Well, of course we're not likely to see "doom and gloom." Those of us who are reasonably intelligent are in remarkably little danger of deportation. What it will do is overwork ICE, an agency that tries to focus its few resources in deporting dangerous criminals (rather than people who overstayed a visa). Given that ICE is nothing but a cost center as far as politicians are concerned, we can already see what is happe…
What does "comprehensive reform" mean in this context? I've usually seen it used as a euphemism for "amnesty".
Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, of course we're not likely to see "doom and gloom." Those of us who are reasonably intelligent are in remarkably little danger of deportation. What it will do is overwork ICE, an agency that tries to focus its few resources in deporting dangerous criminals (rather than people who overstayed a visa). Given that ICE is nothing but a cost center as far as politicians are concerned, we can already see what is happe…
What does "comprehensive reform" mean in this context? I've usually seen it used as a euphemism for "amnesty".
It means that we have to focus on the things that really matter (e.g. drug smuggling aliens) and make ICE more efficient so that coming through immigrations isn't a farce that takes a decade and $50k and so that they have the manpower to go after the people out there committing crimes.
That said, I sincerely wish you'd remove the word "amnesty" from your vocabulary. It's a stop word, just like "Republican", "Democrat" and "terrorist." People see those words and they stop thinking and start getting upset.
It so happens that I'm none of those things, if that helps you any.