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UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

theguardian.com

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Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#61

Post by [deleted] »

chrisseaton wrote: post #44
raesene9 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'd argue they don't know what they want really, in that they want two divergent things, "better public services" and "low taxation" Personally I didn't mention Social security, I know the attitude to people claiming benefits from those not on them in the UK I was thinking of the problems in local gov. spending where the central grant has radically decreased, the problems in police spending with far fewer front…

> in that they want two divergent things, "better public services" and "low taxation" They think this can be achieved be being more efficient (all the newspaper articles about NHS wastage and middle managers), and spending less money on things they don't want (overseas aid is a common example.) So the two things aren't necessarily at odds. > unless you believe in trickle down economics! I think a lot of people do. >…

[deleted]

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#62

Post by gaius »

matthewmacleod wrote: post #48
gaius wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Yes but you are neglecting to mention the other side of this coin: also one of the most expensive countries in the world. Look at purchasing power parity and the UK doesn’t seem rich at all, it’s all on paper only. Housing, fuel, transportation etc are all disproportionately expensive here.

Okay, sure – if you rank by per-capita PPP then the UK slides down the chart further than you might expect. That doesn't in any way make it a poor country or change the point at all.

Well, it sort of does: any services the government delivers will be delivered by people being paid UK wages using goods and services paid for at UK prices. We look rich from the outside because we (still) have a strong currency but from the inside the UK is not especially wealthy because you don’t get much for your money here.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#63

Post by ptx »

dingaling wrote: post #16

Regardless of the actual story, which I do feel has merit, there are examples of why it is perilous to rely on one news source: "whose family couldn’t get school meals in Dumfries, Scotland, because of their immigration status" Actually they couldn't get free school meals, just like anyone else with a household income over £16k. A subtle omission but one that makes it sound like they were excluded from food entirely:…

I felt that was implied and obvious from context, since the entire article was about poverty. (But perhaps also because school meals are always free where I come from.)

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#64

Post by blunte »

As long as most gains and profits go to a small percentage of people ("the top x%"), no sort of retraction/austerity measure will provide long term large scale benefit. It will only exacerbate the situation.

The first problem is measurement. Most current economic measurement methodologies don't consider history well enough - particularly where public funds have been used for infrastructure benefits.

Using the US as an example, the modern status quo of life is built upon the interstate highway system. That's just one (very big) example of how public works/infrastructure has benefited the entire society - especially the business owners who can be more efficient due to well-oiled transportation systems. Perhaps some other rail-based system would be even more effective, but that's beside the point.

But as humans are wont to forget the past, many people have forgotten that it took bold investment at a time when money was scarce to provide a foundation for the next 40+ years. So the fairly recent proclamations of small business owners that they built their own fortunes conveniently forgets that the entire population's investment some decades ago primed the situation that they find themselves in now.

Austerity says the reverse: we will not spend anything on anyone out of public funds (unless some powerful group deems it necessary... such as where military is concerned). But what it fails to recognize is that the more people you have dying around you, the lower your health becomes.

Ignoring ethical discussions, there are practical boundaries to questions of "how much is enough" for people on the upper end and "what is the minimum to live a better-than-horrible life" on the bottom end.

I do not enjoy paying practically double the tax rate in Netherlands as I did in the US, but I find daily life SO much better (and safer) here. Being a king of a ghetto is no life. I'd rather the people cooking my food and washing my dishes at the restaurant not be hating my existence because they're so miserable. In fact, I'd rather them feel essentially equal so that when I compliment them on the food or service they feel pleased to have a conversation with me. That is living.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#65

Post by matthewmacleod »

EliRivers wrote: post #59
raesene9 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a real shame that the concept of raising certain taxes in the UK (specifically income tax and corporation tax) has become an anathema to british politicians. We still need to get the money from somewhere, so instead of fairly increasing progressive taxes, we get lots of little (often unfair) hidden tax rises and huge cuts in public spending. The weird part is, the british public go along with this. The Conservat…

I'm so sick of receiving tax cuts I don't need and will literally never notice, alongside cuts to public services that some people really really need being cut, that the Tory party will never win my vote. Well, I say never; never is a long time, but as long as they keep trying to win my favour by cutting my taxes, they can get bent. I'm not some kind of Pavlovian econo-rational robot, and I object to them treating me…

Heh, I thought I was maybe the only one.

I will pay hundreds of pounds less tax in the next tax year. It seems like an absolutely pointless tax cut. It will make essentially no difference to my quality of life. In the meantime, local services that I use are deteriorating – let alone the ones that people in much more need than I use – and the police force and health service are continuing to head towards an absolute meltdown. There are thousands of people in my local council area relying on charity-run food banks. It's a baffling state of affairs.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#66

Post by tonyedgecombe »

Sharlin wrote: post #22
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'd take a little belt tightening over the youth unemployment Greece or Spain has any day.

I might give this argument a little more credence had the ”little belt tightening” measures not been so transparently politically motivated wealth transfers from the poor to the rich. Funny how ”belt tightening” always applies to the least powerful.

The poorest UK households have also seen their post-tax incomes rise faster than any other group since 2010.

https://fullfact.org/media/uploads/Post_tax_incomes.png

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#67

Post by tonyedgecombe »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #55
emmelaich wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's easy to avoid austerity by borrowing off the next generation.

The idea that a country's budget can be compared to a family's budget is a big fallacy. They are fundamentally different.

The idea that they are fundamentally different is also wrong, or did you think we don't need to service our debt?

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#68

Post by tonyedgecombe »

RobertoG wrote: post #56
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'd take a little belt tightening over the youth unemployment Greece or Spain has any day.

Have you considered the possibility that youth unemployment is a consequence of belt tightening?

Then why haven't we had it in the UK like the Mediterranean countries have?

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#69

Post by tonyedgecombe »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #28
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'd take a little belt tightening over the youth unemployment Greece or Spain has any day.

> I'd take a little belt tightening over North Korea or Somalia. False dichotomy right there. Why not also include say, Sweden, France or Germany as more realistic comparisons?

Sweden, France and Germany aren't valid comparisons because they weren't affected by the financial crisis like we were. In fact you could argue Germany has benefited from the problems of the problem economies because they have kept the Euro weak.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#70

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #67
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that a country's budget can be compared to a family's budget is a big fallacy. They are fundamentally different.

The idea that they are fundamentally different is also wrong, or did you think we don't need to service our debt?

That's another false dichotomy. Also, yes, they are fundamentally different.
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