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UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

theguardian.com

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Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#51

Post by raesene9 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #44
raesene9 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I'd argue they don't know what they want really, in that they want two divergent things, "better public services" and "low taxation" Personally I didn't mention Social security, I know the attitude to people claiming benefits from those not on them in the UK I was thinking of the problems in local gov. spending where the central grant has radically decreased, the problems in police spending with far fewer front…

> in that they want two divergent things, "better public services" and "low taxation" They think this can be achieved be being more efficient (all the newspaper articles about NHS wastage and middle managers), and spending less money on things they don't want (overseas aid is a common example.) So the two things aren't necessarily at odds. > unless you believe in trickle down economics! I think a lot of people do. >…

I'm not sure about the successful business piece. Look at the protests over tax dodging by companies.

I'd say that kind of attitude is common in the US, but less so in the UK.

Albeit I'm seeing things from a Scottish rather than English perspective, but I've not seen an appetite for lower company taxes..

My guess for continued support of this kind of policy is that people think other things are more important (e.g. brexit) + tribalism in voting habits (we've always voted that way round here) + of course the terminally broken FPTP voting system.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#52

Post by sonnyblarney »

jahaja wrote: post #45
sonnyblarney wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Austerity is not 'punitive', nor is your assessment of the OP's comment as 'reflective' necessarily correct. "They intentionally starved the Greek economy to make a political point" Greeks are smart people, that they are begging for free money from Germany does not mean that Germany is 'starving' anyone. "parrot obvious propaganda about the lazy, barely working, tax-dodging Greeks that's applied to them all, bottom-u…

> The Greeks have nobody to blame but themselves. Thanks for confirming my point so well. It's lovely how bottom-up democratic everything becomes as soon as blame and punishment are being thrown about. > The Germans would in fact, do a deal with the Greeks if they instituted proper economic reforms What do you think austerity is if not widespread drastic "reforms" among other things? The Greeks did go to great length…

"It's lovely how bottom-up democratic everything becomes as soon as blame and punishment is being thrown about."

--> The Greeks, collectively are responsible for their own destiny, and their problems are essentially of their own making.

"as blame and punishment"

Your application of such emotional sentiment I think is hiding the reality from you.

There is no 'blame'.

There is no 'punishment'.

There is just reality.

The Greeks will thrive and be wealthy when they decide to institute social, cultural and economic reforms that enable them to be wealthy.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#53

Post by jashmatthews »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #25
matthewmacleod wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really the only choice? The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Part of the reason for that is a long period of generally pro-business, economically conservative government. That's good in many ways, because in a modern economy, business and investment is needed to drive improvements in individual living standards. But doing that relies on a sensible long-term strategy that can be used to achieve…

"There is no point in cutting healthcare spending for preventative services, for example, if those cuts result in higher long-term costs. " By that logic the government should simply increase spending 10x on disability and everything will be great! Everything has an ROI, everything has an efficiency. Canada and Germany both went through massive austerity in the 1990's to re-tool their economies from massive debt over…

> Germany both went through massive austerity in the 1990's to re-tool their economies from massive debt overhang - and it worked.

AFAIK, for Germany that was mostly consequences of reunification. Economic growth slowed in the early 2000s and the centre left instituted the Harz benefit reforms etc. They certainly didn't pay down goverment debt in the 1990s: https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/government-debt-to-gdp

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#54

Post by richardknop »

makomk wrote: post #5
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'd take a little belt tightening over the youth unemployment Greece or Spain has any day.

Aside from how terrible this kind of "there are worse things elsewhere" argument is in general, this isn't even a choice. Like, a little belt tightening trashed the Greek economy. Utterly wrecked it. Did more damage and for longer than the 2008 global financial crisis.

Greece was free to leave the Eurozone, issue its own currency and start spinning the printers to do as much public spending as they want. But they chose to stay within the Eurozone and it would be immoral and wrong to ask citizens of other countries to fund their out of control public spending.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#55

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

emmelaich wrote: post #9
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'd take a little belt tightening over the youth unemployment Greece or Spain has any day.

Yes, it's easy to avoid austerity by borrowing off the next generation.

The idea that a country's budget can be compared to a family's budget is a big fallacy. They are fundamentally different.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#57

Post by jahaja »

sonnyblarney wrote: post #52
jahaja wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Greeks have nobody to blame but themselves. Thanks for confirming my point so well. It's lovely how bottom-up democratic everything becomes as soon as blame and punishment are being thrown about. > The Germans would in fact, do a deal with the Greeks if they instituted proper economic reforms What do you think austerity is if not widespread drastic "reforms" among other things? The Greeks did go to great length…

"It's lovely how bottom-up democratic everything becomes as soon as blame and punishment is being thrown about." --> The Greeks, collectively are responsible for their own destiny, and their problems are essentially of their own making. "as blame and punishment" Your application of such emotional sentiment I think is hiding the reality from you. There is no 'blame'. There is no 'punishment'. There is just reality . T…

Really? There's some objective reality now in economics and politics? To add insult to injury you also imply that they just haven't been bothered yet to simply fix themselves? I'm sorry, but that's a pathetic reply.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#58

Post by DuskStar »

Nimitz14 wrote: post #47
DuskStar wrote: post #30

This report is so horribly biased. The "austerity" in question is a decline in spending as a proportion of GDP since 2009, NOT actual cuts. That's normal when recovering from a recession!

When you're in recession you're supposed to stimulate growth by increasing spending. So no, you're wrong, it's the opposite of normal.

And what do you do when coming out of a recession? Reduce spending or hold steady in absolute terms... Like what the British budget has done since the spending peak in the middle of the recession.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#59

Post by EliRivers »

raesene9 wrote: post #17
matthewmacleod wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really the only choice? The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Part of the reason for that is a long period of generally pro-business, economically conservative government. That's good in many ways, because in a modern economy, business and investment is needed to drive improvements in individual living standards. But doing that relies on a sensible long-term strategy that can be used to achieve…

it's a real shame that the concept of raising certain taxes in the UK (specifically income tax and corporation tax) has become an anathema to british politicians. We still need to get the money from somewhere, so instead of fairly increasing progressive taxes, we get lots of little (often unfair) hidden tax rises and huge cuts in public spending. The weird part is, the british public go along with this. The Conservat…

I'm so sick of receiving tax cuts I don't need and will literally never notice, alongside cuts to public services that some people really really need being cut, that the Tory party will never win my vote.

Well, I say never; never is a long time, but as long as they keep trying to win my favour by cutting my taxes, they can get bent. I'm not some kind of Pavlovian econo-rational robot, and I object to them treating me as one. These days I tend to vote for the most crazy left-wing party on the ballot, but if there isn't one (there's usually one in local elections, isn't one in nationals), not bother.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#60

Post by DuskStar »

RobertoG wrote: post #50
DuskStar wrote: post #30

This report is so horribly biased. The "austerity" in question is a decline in spending as a proportion of GDP since 2009, NOT actual cuts. That's normal when recovering from a recession!

A recession means that not enough money is spent in the economy. In that situation, a government should increase the spending, not use the situation as an excuse for cutting the public sector because ideological reasons. Or do you think that the intention is to restore those services when the economy goes better?

We're ten years from the start of the last recession. Should spending still be high to stimulate the economy, or are they perhaps not in a recession anymore? This isn't a case of a government reducing spending in response to an economic downturn. It's a government INCREASING spending due to that downturn, and then not further increasing it when the economy recovers.
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