UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says • Hacker News Board

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#31

Post by sonnyblarney » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 12:09 PM UTC

jahaja wrote: post #20

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'd take a little belt tightening over the youth unemployment Greece or Spain has any day.

But it's the same belt for all three? I find it both fascinating and unsettling that there seem to be so many smart people that prefer and defends punitive action so reflexively that they will go to great lengths to give it the benefit of the doubt, even without ever doing some background research. Austerity is a great example of this. They intentionally starved the Greek economy to make a political point rather than…

Austerity is not 'punitive', nor is your assessment of the OP's comment as 'reflective' necessarily correct.

"They intentionally starved the Greek economy to make a political point"

Greeks are smart people, that they are begging for free money from Germany does not mean that Germany is 'starving' anyone.

"parrot obvious propaganda about the lazy, barely working, tax-dodging Greeks that's applied to them all, bottom-up."

It's not propaganda - or at least not the 'non tax paying' part.

Not only does Greece not have a functional tax system, they also demand to retire earlier with full benefits than workers in other nations.

The Greeks have nobody to blame but themselves.

Also when you say 'do a deal' what you mean is 'give Greece more free money' - i.e. throw good money after bad.

The Germans would in fact, do a deal with the Greeks if they instituted proper economic reforms, by the way, which would not necessarily have to include austerity, but would definitely have to include reform of the tax system, possibly tourism industry etc. etc..

But Greece cannot do that, they are not functional enough to pull it off.

The easiest option would be simply to devalue their currency, which they cannot do ... which might give you a clue as to the real source of economic Imperialism that is the Eurozone.

Countries that cannot keep their books straight for whatever reason, but are otherwise functional, may have an intrinsic need to devalue their currency. It might be the best way for them to move forward - but the EU does not allow for that ...

... so maybe the Eurozone should be more of a 'trade zone' and less of a currency/political union, as so many people would like.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#32

Post by martinald » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 12:09 PM UTC

It's a strange world where rising public sector spending as a % of GDP is looked at as horrific spending cuts.

People are blaming the wrong thing - it's long age which is causing this. Even though spending is rising, it's not rising 'fast' enough to keep up with the giant bill senior citizens are creating for the NHS and DWP. As the govt has massively ramped up NHS spending and locked pension rises at a historicallg high level, it means every department that isn't catering to this is seeing larger cuts.

Not really sure if just endlessly rising public sector spending to cope with old age can work long term.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#33

Post by raesene9 » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 12:11 PM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #26

raesene9 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a real shame that the concept of raising certain taxes in the UK (specifically income tax and corporation tax) has become an anathema to british politicians. We still need to get the money from somewhere, so instead of fairly increasing progressive taxes, we get lots of little (often unfair) hidden tax rises and huge cuts in public spending. The weird part is, the british public go along with this. The Conservat…

> The weird part is, the British public go along with this. I don't think they're 'going along with it' - you're making it sound like they don't know what they want. UK society doesn't have much of an anti-government movement like in the US, but low taxation and leaner governance is a pretty common, mainstream preference here. I think if you speak to a diverse group of voters in the UK you will find a lot of support…

Well I'd argue they don't know what they want really, in that they want two divergent things, "better public services" and "low taxation"

Personally I didn't mention Social security, I know the attitude to people claiming benefits from those not on them in the UK

I was thinking of the problems in local gov. spending where the central grant has radically decreased, the problems in police spending with far fewer front line officers, the problem in the courts system which is having major impacts there.

The bit about "going along with it" was primarily about the corporation tax cuts.

Those cut revenue and don't directly help citizens (unless you believe in trickle down economics!). A more rational approach would be to want lower personal taxes surely?

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#34

Post by raesene9 » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 12:12 PM UTC

yardstick wrote: post #27

raesene9 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a real shame that the concept of raising certain taxes in the UK (specifically income tax and corporation tax) has become an anathema to british politicians. We still need to get the money from somewhere, so instead of fairly increasing progressive taxes, we get lots of little (often unfair) hidden tax rises and huge cuts in public spending. The weird part is, the british public go along with this. The Conservat…

My local (Labour, not that it really matters) council has taken pride in not raising council tax for the last 5+ years. Yet inflation has pushed up wages and expenses and somehow they expect to maintain the same quality of local government. Impossible!

plus of course the ongoing reductions in central funding for local authorities https://www.local.gov.uk/about/news/council-funding-be-furth...

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#35

Post by RobertoG » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 12:12 PM UTC

emmelaich wrote: post #9

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'd take a little belt tightening over the youth unemployment Greece or Spain has any day.

Yes, it's easy to avoid austerity by borrowing off the next generation.

I know that the 'borrowing off the next generation' is a popular sentence, but, does that means anything at all?

Would you prefer to live in a country with a high public debt and industry, infrastructure and an educated population or in a dessert with zero public debt?

What even means the 'public debt' number when a country have its own currency and inflation is under control? Nothing at all.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#36

Post by matthewmacleod » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 12:12 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #25

matthewmacleod wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really the only choice? The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Part of the reason for that is a long period of generally pro-business, economically conservative government. That's good in many ways, because in a modern economy, business and investment is needed to drive improvements in individual living standards. But doing that relies on a sensible long-term strategy that can be used to achieve…

"There is no point in cutting healthcare spending for preventative services, for example, if those cuts result in higher long-term costs. " By that logic the government should simply increase spending 10x on disability and everything will be great! Everything has an ROI, everything has an efficiency. Canada and Germany both went through massive austerity in the 1990's to re-tool their economies from massive debt over…

By that logic the government should simply increase spending 10x on disability and everything will be great!

No, you've made a logical leap that isn't warranted.

There is nothing wrong with running a balanced and cautious budget, and I didn't say there was. But cutting spending on a service unnecessarily, when doing so raises the total long-term spending on that service is categorically inefficient. It's a classic example of short-termism – government ends up simultaneously forking over more money, and achieving less!

Everything has an ROI, everything has an efficiency.

Yes, I agree. That's why UK government austerity should focus less on inefficient spending cuts to essential services, and more on restructuring the economy.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#37

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 12:12 PM UTC

sonnyblarney wrote: post #25

matthewmacleod wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that really the only choice? The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Part of the reason for that is a long period of generally pro-business, economically conservative government. That's good in many ways, because in a modern economy, business and investment is needed to drive improvements in individual living standards. But doing that relies on a sensible long-term strategy that can be used to achieve…

"There is no point in cutting healthcare spending for preventative services, for example, if those cuts result in higher long-term costs. " By that logic the government should simply increase spending 10x on disability and everything will be great! Everything has an ROI, everything has an efficiency. Canada and Germany both went through massive austerity in the 1990's to re-tool their economies from massive debt over…

I don't see how your quote relates to the second para, can you explain?

Increased spending on disability won't reduce future spending; whilst selling off children's playground, say, is likely to be detrimental later.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#38

Post by RobertoG » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 12:14 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #21

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'd take a little belt tightening over the youth unemployment Greece or Spain has any day.

In Greece and Spain, the youth unemployment goes hand to hand with the belt tightening.

Like in everywhere else. Employment is, obviously, a function of investment.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#39

Post by CJefferson » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 12:14 PM UTC

martinald wrote: post #32

It's a strange world where rising public sector spending as a % of GDP is looked at as horrific spending cuts. People are blaming the wrong thing - it's long age which is causing this. Even though spending is rising, it's not rising 'fast' enough to keep up with the giant bill senior citizens are creating for the NHS and DWP. As the govt has massively ramped up NHS spending and locked pension rises at a historicallg…

Simple measurements of money spent don't show the whole picture (as the article discusses). Many of the harshest cuts were against services for the poor, while other expenses (military, pension support for richer citizens) saw raises in spending above inflation.

Re: UK austerity has inflicted 'great misery' on citizens, UN says

#40

Post by gaius » Sat, Nov 17, 2018, 12:16 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #7

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #2

I'd take a little belt tightening over the youth unemployment Greece or Spain has any day.

Is that really the only choice? The UK is one of the richest countries in the world. Part of the reason for that is a long period of generally pro-business, economically conservative government. That's good in many ways, because in a modern economy, business and investment is needed to drive improvements in individual living standards. But doing that relies on a sensible long-term strategy that can be used to achieve…

The UK is one of the richest countries in the world.

Yes but you are neglecting to mention the other side of this coin: also one of the most expensive countries in the world. Look at purchasing power parity and the UK doesn’t seem rich at all, it’s all on paper only. Housing, fuel, transportation etc are all disproportionately expensive here.