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Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

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Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#61
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really put your mind to it, sure, you could avoid learning any new programming languages. Hell, many people still make a very healthy living working with COBOL. But if you really enjoy being a software developer and want to be the best at what you do, I don't think you'll ever stop learning new languages.

Let's look at spoken language. As humans move from a type 0 to a type 1 civilization [borrowing terminology from Michio Kaku], English is becoming the global language. It's certainly possible to never learn another language after English and be well off in a global economy. Advantages of English [paraphrased from "ESB" on antimoon]: -Germanic base has been mixed with the Roman vocabulary, giving it the best of both w…

English is not dominant because it is a 'good enough' language - its dominant because the 2 successive superpowers in the last 2 centuries speak English. There are nearly 200 countries in the UN and about 70 of them are former British colonies. Are you seriously arguing that in, say Nigeria, there was a 'fair' or 'utilitarian' trial of languages and English 'just happened' to be better than the dozens of languages there (repeat this argument 70 times).

> It's spoken by the most influential and powerful countries on earth. This is not accidental, but perhaps an important underlying cause for their success.

This statement is demonstrable nonsense - you are confusing correlation with causation.

With the appropriate infrastructure ANY LANGUAGE can be made to support all the intellectual pursuits of the modern world. Anything from Nuclear Physics to Psychology can be appropriately represented in ANY human language - including ones that don't yet exist - with the application of sufficient resources.

The example that demonstrates that is Gallaudet University n the US - the Deaf University http://www.gallaudet.edu/

All the courses are taught through the medium of Sign Language (the written language is English because Sign doesn't have a written form). Interesting enough fact fans, Deaf Americans speak French, not English (or more accurately British Sign Language).

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Good enough" is a curious notion. I'm an advocate of "good enough" is good enough, but sometimes it can be quite tricky to decide when something is good enough. And if . Sometimes, you figure it out down the road; and you'll be in deep trouble if you find out it wasn't! Anyhow, there have been many "good enough" languages — mostly, it depends on cultural factors. Latin is still present in today's traditional science…

English is and will be the de facto language of globalization. All of the world's elites speak it in every country. People will speak their local language, AND English. I think this is a given. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ftF8sXzoWk English will certainly outlast Chinese. The constitution of India is written in English and India will soon far eclipse China in terms of population. I think it's a given, is assumed…

> English will certainly outlast Chinese.

That's a conjecture at best. Chinese has so far outlasted any language still actively spoken on the planet. In fact, the Chinese writing system is the oldest continually used writing system. The cultural heritage behind this is huge.

And while you're certainly right that India has had a lot of English influence, you shouldn't forget the recent colonization history of India. It's still part of the Commonwealth, in fact. And when I say 'recent' I mean that in terms of some couple of centuries. I have no means of predicting the political state of the world in another couple of centuries. Do you? Thus, I'd be careful to make claims such as "X is going to outlast Y," except you've got very good reason to do so.

> You can see indentation in a text document\program, but you have to add extra syntax in spoken language to convey this.

You're forgetting prosody and gestures, which are an integral part of spoken language. Also, natural language has 'pragmatics,' a process of eliciting and cancelling implicatures and presuppositions. Natural language is anything but linear or sequential. In fact there's usually several layers of information-transfer going on at once.

> Internal language recognition\parsing is incredibly LISP like.

Nope, it isn't. First of all, we have no idea what's going on internally. Neurolinguistics and neuropsychology aren't far enough yet, and at this point, it's just guess work. But what we do know, is that LISP and natural languages live in entirely different complexity classes of language. LISP is context free - and natural language isn't. Probably, it's not quite context sensitive yet, but probably somewhere in between (there's dozens of disjoint sets of language complexity classes between those two.) LISP cannot create, for example, cross-serial dependencies, like they occur in swiss German and Danish are in a complexity class not provided for by LISP-like grammars.

I know about "chunking." In fact, I'm doing research in a related subject (computational semantics and formalisms for representing meaning.) It would all be well and good: you have chunks and operators, and then you write the grammar, and voilá, you've got your NL parser. Just that it's not that easy. Anaphora resolution, world knowledge and linguistic knowledge, pragmatics, weird syntactical phenomena (say, pied piping, etc.) have made this infinitely harder. If all you want to parse is "Hey, give me a hot dog," we've been here for the past 30 or 40 years. That's not hard. If you want to parse the English Wikipedia, it's impossible. You can only approximate.

The differences between spoken languages are vast. The differences between functional and imperative languages (because that's what you're referring to, I think) are minuscule in comparison. I can learn the functional paradigm and pick up any functional language within weeks, probably less (for example, I can read and write Erlang, OCaml, ML and LISP, even though I only really know Haskell and Lua.) In order to learn a new language (even a closely related one, like say from English to Swedish) you'd take at least a year in order to even be able to understand basic conversation or news. It's mostly the vocabulary, but also the speed and the multiple layers of information transfer that I alluded to earlier that make this a lot harder.

It sounds like you've given the topic some thought, but your ideas seem (to me!) all too reminiscent of the optimism computer scientists had in the 50s to 70s or so. People thought computer systems comprehending natural language were just a stone's throw away, because, hey we had all the basic machinery! Well, they weren't. It seems language is a lot more complicated than we all initially thought.

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the glacial place at which the industry adopts new languages and paradigms and the trend for weaker languages to tend towards Lisp in terms of features over time, I dunno ... it may be the last interesting production language he learns in his lifetime (Lisp is 50 years old after all and many people are still just now really discovering it). For me the only other trending language that seems to offer drama…

Who is this "industry" you speak of and why are you limited to what it dictates you use? But seriously, I know what you mean. Certain, enterprisey shops will always prefer things like Java because they have this perception that it's a "save" language because it is established, meaning they'll always be able to find someone to bang on their Java code. These places, in terms of the technology they use, are largely unin…

Oops, I meant "safe" rather than "save" there. Past the limit to edit.

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#65
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I urge you to look at it again - who cares what the users believe? What matters is what you get out of it.

I hacked a lot of CL back in 2002-2003 and I've dabbled in Clojure lately. Clojure has a lot of promise but I'm waiting for some of the rough edges to get smoothed out (stacktraces in particular).

I agree about Clojure's rough edges. I'm a beginner, and when something goes wrong it is very opaque to me what happened. That said, I do enjoy the language--especially the baked-in data structures.

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is and will be the de facto language of globalization. All of the world's elites speak it in every country. People will speak their local language, AND English. I think this is a given. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ftF8sXzoWk English will certainly outlast Chinese. The constitution of India is written in English and India will soon far eclipse China in terms of population. I think it's a given, is assumed…

> English will certainly outlast Chinese. That's a conjecture at best. Chinese has so far outlasted any language still actively spoken on the planet. In fact, the Chinese writing system is the oldest continually used writing system. The cultural heritage behind this is huge. And while you're certainly right that India has had a lot of English influence, you shouldn't forget the recent colonization history of India. I…

> I have no means of predicting the political state of the world in another couple of centuries. Do you?

We can look at futurists who claim they do. We can look at big trends that have occurred since the Big Bang. And the "futurists" all say we are "globalizing" and becoming more "interconnected". Transforming from provincal economies and governments to world governments and super-national economic trading blocks. And that everyone in the world is learning English. All the world's elites speak English. And the other member's of their community, when they see that the elites know English, force their children to learn English because they want them to grow up to be like the current elite. In Indonesia, there is currently growing concern that their local language is dying off as parents overencourage their kids to learn English from a young age.

> You're forgetting prosody and gestures

Which are also not present when written down. Natural language has to have a verbose enough in syntax to be compressed to the intersection of bandwidth features present in both Oral and Written. Without suffering too high of information loss. In other words yes prosody and gestures are important, by they are supplementary to the core feature set. The syntax also has to be verbose enough to not loose too much information when transferred back and forth between paper and speech. This is not an important requirement for programming, which can exploit its single medium more extensively.

> The differences between spoken languages are vast.

The differences in brain anatomy between those speaking different languages is not. [ A function could contain infinitely many points. Yet it is possible for all these points to all have exactly the same derivative. And once you have modeled the derivative, you have a certain degree of predictive confidence in all future positions of the function. LISP is similar to an underlying derivative of a function generating programming languages, while still being usable as a language itself. ]

>and voilá, you've got your NL parser.

>computer systems comprehending natural language were just a stone's throw away

I completely agree is it nearly impossible to write an authoritative model of processing system of the brain from top-down conjecture. Because semantic association is defined by its relation to other chunks, we will NEVER have a perfect database of these relations, unless we map the human brain. That's why we have computational neuroscience, and are simulating cortical columns on neuron emulators, which will be able to map long before we would armchair philosophize it due to the complexity. I assure you I can very skeptical\pessimistic of "intelligent design".

I think what we can agree on in relation to the OP is that when he says LISP is the last language he'll ever learn it's kind of cheating the question he imposes on himself because it's flexible enough tool to morph into any language depending on the problem domain. And a specie's flexibility and capacity for adaptation is the best measure of survivability.

[ please hit me up via email if you want to drop links to journal articles so I'm not as ignorant to your field of research ]

[ Also please check out this article: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jz3FEk2KJ... "Wired youth forget how to write in China and Japan" . English by evolutionarily choosing alphabet over characters has proven more adaptable and survivable ]

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#67
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really put your mind to it, sure, you could avoid learning any new programming languages. Hell, many people still make a very healthy living working with COBOL. But if you really enjoy being a software developer and want to be the best at what you do, I don't think you'll ever stop learning new languages.

Let's look at spoken language. As humans move from a type 0 to a type 1 civilization [borrowing terminology from Michio Kaku], English is becoming the global language. It's certainly possible to never learn another language after English and be well off in a global economy. Advantages of English [paraphrased from "ESB" on antimoon]: -Germanic base has been mixed with the Roman vocabulary, giving it the best of both w…

English is currently hot, just as e.g. French was before it, but I'd expect that to start changing within the next, say 20 years. I'd expect the US to lose more and more relevance while China is gaining. Something could screw that up, you can never predict the future with any accuracy but I would give these events a higher probability than English becoming the global language.

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at spoken language. As humans move from a type 0 to a type 1 civilization [borrowing terminology from Michio Kaku], English is becoming the global language. It's certainly possible to never learn another language after English and be well off in a global economy. Advantages of English [paraphrased from "ESB" on antimoon]: -Germanic base has been mixed with the Roman vocabulary, giving it the best of both w…

I'll disagree. The features you listed apply to other languages much better than they do to English (except the bit about influential countries.) Chinese has a richer vocabulary, is more succinct and has a much less sophisticated grammatic system than English. If you want to get rid of the daunting logosyllabic way of writing, go Korean. Almost the same advantages, with one of the most beautiful and simple alphabets…

What do you mean by "Chinese"? There are thousands of what are called "dialects" but in reality they are totally different languages with different grammars and so on. They do share a common script but that doesn't tell much about the spoken language (since it applies to all of them afaik).

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, English isn't perfect, yet it's still a great example of how something that's "good enough" can become dominant. I'm not saying it should be dominant, but that it is and will inevitably continue to be (there are more students taking SATs in China in ENGLISH than in the US+Britain). Also I would argue it's not just due to Britain's empire, but Rome's and Germanic tribes creating a long evolutionary path up to…

"Good enough" is a curious notion. I'm an advocate of "good enough" is good enough, but sometimes it can be quite tricky to decide when something is good enough. And if . Sometimes, you figure it out down the road; and you'll be in deep trouble if you find out it wasn't! Anyhow, there have been many "good enough" languages — mostly, it depends on cultural factors. Latin is still present in today's traditional science…

>There is no one language. There cannot be one.

Especially when you consider that language isn't just spoken words. It's a whole way of thinking. A big part of the culture itself. That's not going to just die off because English speakers are too lazy to learn any other languages.

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#70
Like many, I've been meaning to learn [some kind of] LISP since I first heard of it. I use OS X, though, and it seems Apple has decided that Java is on its way out. Should I be worried about Java-related incompatibilities or hassles in the future if I start writing a lot of Clojure code?
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