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Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

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Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's look at spoken language. As humans move from a type 0 to a type 1 civilization [borrowing terminology from Michio Kaku], English is becoming the global language. It's certainly possible to never learn another language after English and be well off in a global economy. Advantages of English [paraphrased from "ESB" on antimoon]: -Germanic base has been mixed with the Roman vocabulary, giving it the best of both w…

I'll disagree. The features you listed apply to other languages much better than they do to English (except the bit about influential countries.) Chinese has a richer vocabulary, is more succinct and has a much less sophisticated grammatic system than English. If you want to get rid of the daunting logosyllabic way of writing, go Korean. Almost the same advantages, with one of the most beautiful and simple alphabets…

Exactly, English isn't perfect, yet it's still a great example of how something that's "good enough" can become dominant. I'm not saying it should be dominant, but that it is and will inevitably continue to be (there are more students taking SATs in China in ENGLISH than in the US+Britain). Also I would argue it's not just due to Britain's empire, but Rome's and Germanic tribes creating a long evolutionary path up to American web pages.

Regardless LISP variants are still closer to all spoken languages you mentioned than other programming languages. The main difference why the linguistic languages don't look like LISP variants is that languages can only be processed sequentially\linerarly one sound\word\morpheme at a time, this restriction isn't strictly required for a programming language that is primarily absorbed visuo-spatially. LISP is more similar to ALL spoken languages, so there is a lot of evolutionary indicators pointing to the possibility of long term [ > avg human lifespan ] dominance by a LISP implementation.

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll disagree. The features you listed apply to other languages much better than they do to English (except the bit about influential countries.) Chinese has a richer vocabulary, is more succinct and has a much less sophisticated grammatic system than English. If you want to get rid of the daunting logosyllabic way of writing, go Korean. Almost the same advantages, with one of the most beautiful and simple alphabets…

Exactly, English isn't perfect, yet it's still a great example of how something that's "good enough" can become dominant. I'm not saying it should be dominant, but that it is and will inevitably continue to be (there are more students taking SATs in China in ENGLISH than in the US+Britain). Also I would argue it's not just due to Britain's empire, but Rome's and Germanic tribes creating a long evolutionary path up to…

"Good enough" is a curious notion. I'm an advocate of "good enough" is good enough, but sometimes it can be quite tricky to decide when something is good enough. And if. Sometimes, you figure it out down the road; and you'll be in deep trouble if you find out it wasn't!

Anyhow, there have been many "good enough" languages — mostly, it depends on cultural factors. Latin is still present in today's traditional sciences (biology, medicine,) French is the language in arts and cuisine, Italian is dominant in music theory, Greek infests philosophy and logics, as does German, which also has a strong foothold in engineering and mathematics. And what do we learn from that? There is no one language. There cannot be one. At least, we haven't figured out a way.

Over time, dominant languages rise and fade. That's why I loved Firefly for incorporating Chinese :-D English will fade (most probably.) Also most probably, it will stay in the computing sector, just like Italian did in the music sector.

> there are more students taking SATs in China in ENGLISH than in the US+Britain

Yeah, that's like saying more Indians write Java code than Americans. What does it mean? Java is "good enough?" For some tasks, but not for all.

That Rome to WWW line of yours is quite eurocentric. Can't put my finger on it, but "American web pages" look different in Asia than they do in the West. The cultural values of ancient Rome had no real influence there — except you mean to imply Babbage influenced C#.

My knowledge of LISP doesn't go beyond programming-book examples. I somehow never got into it — I blame Haskell!. But you're certainly mistaken that language recognition is sequential. For all we know, it most likely isn't. And for Chinese, for example, it really definitely isn't. Reading a Chinese poem is reading backwards, across, down, and up at the same time in order to get the full meaning.

I don't get how LISP is closer to natural languages than to programming languages?

Anyhow, my take on the situation of the OP: if he stays in the sector he's in and doesn't move out before retirement, he's found his last language. Otherwise, different tasks and developments are going to force him to adapt. There is no one best language. We've been trying to find it for thousands of years, and it's been rather fruitless so far.

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, English isn't perfect, yet it's still a great example of how something that's "good enough" can become dominant. I'm not saying it should be dominant, but that it is and will inevitably continue to be (there are more students taking SATs in China in ENGLISH than in the US+Britain). Also I would argue it's not just due to Britain's empire, but Rome's and Germanic tribes creating a long evolutionary path up to…

"Good enough" is a curious notion. I'm an advocate of "good enough" is good enough, but sometimes it can be quite tricky to decide when something is good enough. And if . Sometimes, you figure it out down the road; and you'll be in deep trouble if you find out it wasn't! Anyhow, there have been many "good enough" languages — mostly, it depends on cultural factors. Latin is still present in today's traditional science…

English is and will be the de facto language of globalization. All of the world's elites speak it in every country. People will speak their local language, AND English. I think this is a given. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ftF8sXzoWk

English will certainly outlast Chinese. The constitution of India is written in English and India will soon far eclipse China in terms of population. I think it's a given, is assumed by most people, and not overly worth arguing

> But you're certainly mistaken that language recognition is sequential.

The initial input and output of [spoken] language is sequential by definition and structure of the ear and voicebox. I simply meant that you can not speak two words or hear two words at the same time in the manner that you can see two words at the same time. You can see indentation in a text document\program, but you have to add extra syntax in spoken language to convey this.

Internal language recognition\parsing is incredibly LISP like. I'll try to add a more detailed explanation of what I mean by this in the future when I have more time.

[ basically when the human brain processes information, there are limited resources, right. The working memory buffer for the human brain can only hold 5-7 "chunks" at the same time. You have to resort to the phenomena of "chunking" to process more information. You should find this article very interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chunking_(psychology) So basically we use "operators" to chunk things together. We could have a "phrase" operator that chunks a noun, verb, and object together. What's great or genius is that this "phrase", or function, is ALSO a chunk. and you can combine those chunks together in the same manner even if they are functions. This is like LISP: functions are data and data are functions. This is the "big deal" about LISP. It's similar to in the human brain, where everything is a "chunk". As long as you have processed sub-ideas into a chunk and have given a name for that chunk, you can start wielding bigger ideas. ]

[ Spoken languages are all GOOD and reflective of human thought. Anyone is GOOD ENOUGH. The differences between spoken languages are small. The differences between LISP programming languages and non-LISP programming languages are vast. LISP is to thought as Python is to English. LISP is the most similar to an evolutionarily evolved structure (human thought). Therefore a LISP implementation could also share high survivability. And could survive longer than a human lifespan. ]

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#36

The punchline is...."So about six weeks ago I picked up Cloure" - If you're linkbaiting your article, you should always spellcheck.

flag. Not something that I generally do, but (a) clojure won't be in any spellchecker, and (b) your snark adds nothing to the discussion. If you wanted to say "and that language was clojure", you could have left it at that.

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#38
>And LISP, as it turns out, isn’t a programming language. LISP is a way of mind.

I wish could find a good post that doesn't just say this, it really makes me get it. Any suggestions?

Edit: Thanks unoti - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1845104 , I'm going to be reading this next http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#39
That Paul Graham quote - “Programming languages are not merely technologies, but habits of mind as well.”

Reminds me of an excellent Dijkstra quote, from A Discipline of Programming - "A most important, but also a most elusive, aspect of any tool is its influence on the habits of those who train themselves in its use."

Re: Home at Last, or, The Last Programming Language I Will Ever Learn

#40
post #38

>And LISP, as it turns out, isn’t a programming language. LISP is a way of mind. I wish could find a good post that doesn't just say this, it really makes me get it . Any suggestions? Edit: Thanks unoti - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1845104 , I'm going to be reading this next http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/

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