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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#441

Post by oarsinsync »

javajosh wrote: post #432
haberman wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your arguments are examples of the false equivalence fallacy. [1] Sorry but I don't have time to provide any more comprehensive of a rebuttal. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence (This is why I don't think labeling is a rebuttal.)

I mean, I see what you're doing here, haha, but AlexanderB brings up a good point about asymmetrical debate, where one side says something sloppy, vague and poorly sourced and then expects you to "write a thesis" to rebut. Personally, I think this phenomena really does need a name, less to dismiss it, more to get lazy arguers to stop demanding high quality rebuttals (and at the very least to make the debate easier to…

> ...and at the very least to make the debate easier to walk away from...

I find simply reminding myself that duty doesn't actually call[0] to be a very easy way to walk away from any debate that isn't going anywhere productive

[0] https://xkcd.com/386/

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#442

Post by alex_duf »

FilterSweep wrote: post #18
yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

And I don’t blame them. Developers are largely undercompensated for the utility they provide for firms, both across companies and within (compared to other roles). In the Bay, it’s the difference between living comfortably+saving for their future and just making ends meet. It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb.

> Developers are largely undercompensated for the utility they provide for firms

I disagree, we just have a favourable job market. We're a privileged slice of the population, my salary is way higher than anyone in my family, than my partner or most of my school mates. Am I smarter than them? Am I working harder than them? I don't think so.

It's sheer luck. It's not to dismiss any of the effort/creativity/perseverance it takes to get into that class of work, but devs are anything but "undercompensated". There's just not enough of us around.

Now the bay area might be a special case where the reliance on our industry completely distorted everything else.

Regarding your point about blaming students working for Facebook, I agree, I don't think they should be blamed. Everyone has their own situation to deal with.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#443

Post by yakubin »

vehementi wrote: post #426
eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

> Where is it ethical to work? Working at Netflix, Apple, Salesforce, Oracle, or Microsoft seems to be a category more ethical than Facebook/Google, wouldn't you say? Isn't that a good place to start? At worst, those companies are mainly just screwing over other companies (though depends on if Netflix is up to something behind the scenes)

Oracle? With their approach to IP? No, I don’t think so. I don’t think they care about anything but money in the least.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#444

Post by ionised »

> "Now it’s like, just because it does what you want doesn’t mean it’s doing good."

I'm actually impressed that an 18 year old has this attitude and hasn't been swayed by the free-market fundamentalism so prevalent among the HN crowd.

Too many people treat as a truism the idea that if people are buying or using something provided by a company then that thing is obviously of great positive value to society and should be nurtured and grown.

It's an incredibly naive, irresponsible and socially and ecologically destructive viewpoint in my opinion.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#445

Post by ionised »

eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

There are plenty of ethical places to work. You just need to not look only at the richest companies with the most generous compensation, because they tend to be the ones that aren't.

It's a simple question you have to ask yourself. Do you value money more than your principles?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#446

Post by ionised »

bepotts wrote: post #113
Jonanin wrote: post #27

I have concerns about Facebook just like everyone else, but I'd also like to point out that the New York Times is not repeatedly publishing articles criticizing FB simply because of their superior moral stance. They are doing it because FB took away a lot of revenue from publishers like them, and they are very, very angry about it.

And it's so transparent at this point. I've listened to podcasts with reporters and they lament the rise of Facebook and how "Facebook is stealing their business" through ads and algorithm changes that hurt them. But the bias doesn't matter because everyone on the internet hates them (and Google) so they just rush to pile on. Anything negative about Facebook gets to the front page very quickly. The thing is, Facebook…

> Facebook has billions of users and you don't get billions of users by being evil.

You might want to talk to Pablo Escobar about that.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#447

Post by martinraag »

eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

Whataboutism [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism] is not really a good defence of Facebook I think.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#448

Post by Tempest1981 »

Jonanin wrote: post #27

I have concerns about Facebook just like everyone else, but I'd also like to point out that the New York Times is not repeatedly publishing articles criticizing FB simply because of their superior moral stance. They are doing it because FB took away a lot of revenue from publishers like them, and they are very, very angry about it.

If I were a NYT journalist, I would lament the decreasing demand for in-depth reporting. And the public’s desire for sensationalism.

Related: (low quality journalism) https://mobile.twitter.com/mikeokuda/status/1019964820618035...

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#449

Post by collyw »

mcrad wrote: post #254
nemild wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

Fun fact: Nike's mission is to do everything possible to expand human potential. https://www.economist.com/business/2018/08/02/mission-implau...

In their sweatshops?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#450

Post by ionised »

icedchai wrote: post #32
leroy_masochist wrote: post #23

Allowing 19-year-old kids to have their name and photo published in the newspaper of record in an article that quotes their snarky comments about how they're not sure if they'd deign to work for any given company is journalistic malpractice. I don't blame the kids. They're young and naturally earnest, and are marinating in an environment where performative wokeness results in positive social reinforcement. They don't…

They're probably not smart enough to get in, anyway. If they were, they'd go to FB, milk that huge salary, unload their RSU's on a regular basis, save and invest, and FIRE by age 35. Signed, a CS graduate and FB stock holder with 500% return.

Assuming that money is all you give a shit about. That seems like an empty life to me.
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