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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#281

Post by stevenicr »

eksemplar wrote: post #117

I get that we don’t like Facebook, but isn’t this a bit much? Are they worse than google or amazon? What about people who work for Coca-Cola? What about the people who make mobile games and loot boxes for Blizzard? Where is it ethical to work? I mean, I’ve been in public service for decades, so I know a thing or two about choosing idealism over money, but that’s not for everyone and I frankly don’t think Facebook is…

yes, they are worse than all those. Perhaps loot box companies are close and only less so because of current scale and not because of less sinister intent.

Google is not fbook, (not that I am a fan of big G - it's evil in other ways more so than fbook) -

Where is ethical in my mind is more shades of grey rather than place A is and Place B is not..

I think many people do not understand the immense power the fbook wields to truly get how damaging it is and can be. Some of us may not get sucked in by our evolving news feed, but that does not mean that it is not indeed sucking people in and keeping them hooked for it's benefit and to the detriment of other's lives.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#282

Post by jiveturkey »

gringoDan wrote: post #83
Animats wrote: post #49

...the head of the start-up incubator and investment firm, Y Combinator, gave opening remarks, recommending that young people avoid jobs in big tech. “You get to program your life on a totally different scale.... The worst thing that can happen to you is you get a job at Google.” He called those jobs “$100,000 a year welfare” — meaning, he said, that workers can get tethered to the paycheck and avoid taking risks. Wh…

If (big if) you can choose the next Dropbox, Airbnb, Stripe, Coinbase etc. and become one of the first 20 employees, your payoff is going to be far greater than if you're the founder of an average YC startup. There's also the closer-knit network than at a huge company like Google & the opportunity to learn several times more than you would at a big company. Definitely not for everyone and you will be paid less off th…

> If (big if) you can choose the next Dropbox, Airbnb, Stripe, Coinbase etc. and become one of the first 20 employees,

Completely irrelevant. As one of the first 20, you have exactly zero idea if it's going to be the next Dropbox, Airbnb, Stripe, Coinbase, etc.

Your chances of landing at a company like this as a first 20 are perhaps .0001%, and if you did land there, you won't know it was a success for 5-10 years afterwards. And as a person straight out of school, you are not getting key-hire level of equity in your offer package. You'll get an amount that would equalize the total comp were you to go to a bigco, IF the startup sees modest success.

Big payoff is not the reason to go to a startup. As one of the parents said, work environment is the reason. IMHO anyone out of school should go to a startup, not a bigco. For the work environment.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#283

Post by crunchlibrarian »

mcrad wrote: post #254
nemild wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

Fun fact: Nike's mission is to do everything possible to expand human potential. https://www.economist.com/business/2018/08/02/mission-implau...

This is like something a stoned frat boy would come up with as their first attempt at a mission statement.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#284

Post by tropdrop »

pathseeker wrote: post #265
AlexandrB wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. It seems to assume that the market is “fair” and getting poor pay must be justified by some other factor about the job. In reality, there are plenty of jobs that have garbage pay and suck. As well as jobs that are both lucrative and “easy”. Consider the average CEO: not the exceptional visionar…

>The free market is not fair, and it is not a meritocracy. It's fair, but not based on effort like people mistakenly think it should be. It's silly to think "I should be paid X because it was really hard work" or to try to interfere with the market to force that price. A big part of the issue is ignorance of economics among most of the population. People don't realize they are always participating in markets, even wh…

>So what? Their medical degree obvious isn't qualifying them to be a doctor in the new country.

I never understood this, even while in the medical industry myself. Perhaps this might be a little true for an immigrant from Venezuela with a medical degree. But for an immigrant from England, Why not?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#285

Post by awakeasleep »

mcrad wrote: post #254
nemild wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved this quote: > “Employees are wising up to the fact that you can have a mission statement on your website, but when you’re looking at how the company creates new products or makes decisions, the correlation between the two is not so tightly aligned,” said David Chie, the head of Palo Alto Staffing, a tech job placement service in Silicon Valley. “Everyone’s having this conversation.” I call these anodyne missi…

Fun fact: Nike's mission is to do everything possible to expand human potential. https://www.economist.com/business/2018/08/02/mission-implau...

My friend was contracted to do some marketing for Frito-Lay and according to the team that hired them, Frito Lay's mission was to capture the 30% of non-prepackaged food eaten by Americans.

Their public mission statement is a bit more innocuous: At Frito-Lay, delighting our consumers is job No. 1. To us, that means putting consumers first in every decision we make - from the quality and care that goes into making our snacks to the ways in which we give back to the community and care for our environment.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#286

Post by tanderson92 »

DenisM wrote: post #277
sjg007 wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a summary post: https://medium.com/@wtfmitchel/the-political-nature-of-indus... I guess I would read some of his books: Profit over People and the one on Media. He has a 1997 talk at northeastern on youtube where he addresses it a bit during question time.

An aside. Chomsky made a sizable contribution to intellectual criticism of the modern imperialism. I wonder who will pick up the reins when he's gone?

Matt Taibbi in collaboration with Chomsky is writing a sequel to Manufacturing Consent, discussing history and the media environment since its publication. I'm not suggesting he is an heir, only that interested readers might check out.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#287

Post by bamboozled »

yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

It doesn’t mean grads are excited about working at Facebook, it means they accept an offer for the sake of common sense.

This will most likely work to Facebooks disadvantage long term however; Facebooks workforce can’t only be motivated by money.

There was certainly a time that people would’ve took way less money to be part of FB because they believed in the product and mission, which is now a joke.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#288

Post by itronitron »

vonmoltke wrote: post #176
magduf wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs in the defense industry are probably like this for this reason as well.

Are you kidding? The worst pay, worst perks, and worst working environment I ever had was at a large defense contractor, and I didn't see any of our competitors offering anything better. Almost any established tech company can beat them easily.

yes, I think this is because defense contractors want (or feel obligated) to be like DoD which is in the unique position of being able to prevent its 'employees' from quitting.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#289

Post by jnwatson »

ryanbrunner wrote: post #269
p1necone wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My assumption with mission statements was that they were always bullshit made up by a marketing team or some exec and I wouldn't expect them to have much relation to reality. Was I in the minority?

Ironically I think Facebook is one example that (at least in the early days) had values that actually had teeth. "Move fast and break things" isn't just a feel-good truism like most values that companies come up with are. It's something that at least some people are going to disagree with, and it's something that can actually be instructive when making a decision at that company. I don't personally agree with it, but…

"Break things" like democracy, I guess.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#290

Post by adgasf »

xxpor wrote: post #190
eesmith wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb. Consider Joseph Rotblat. He worked on the Manhattan Project because believed that it was needed as a deterrent against a German nuclear weapon. After he learned that Germany had given up on the bomb, he left the Manhattan Project - the only one to do so - and felt betrayed by its use in Japan. "Rotblat believed that scient…

The difference is the nuclear arms race was inevitable. The soviets would have made it eventually anyway, and then what would we (the US) have done? Facebook on the other hand is not inevitable.

If Facebook hadn't succeeded another, similar network would have
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