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Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

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Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

#21

Post by rdtsc »

scrod wrote: post #14
izendejas wrote: post #12

If legislators really wanted to reduce illegal immigration they would also go after the demand, implementing tougher penalties against those who hire illegal immigrants^^ or outsource to companies that do. Of course, this will never happen as the walmarts, mcdonalds, big tech corps^, etc will never allow it because surely their costs would go up and so would their prices. Edit: ^ work at a big tech company? A decent…

And in fact, companies that hire illegal immigrants benefit greatly from stricter immigration enforcement; the more pressure from the state that's applied to immigrants, the easier it is for employers to lower their pay, subject them to dangerous and harsh conditions, and occasionally even refuse to compensate them altogether. If they refuse, ICE will deport their families.

If we cared about human rights, we should flip the situation on its head and impose heavy (in the 6 or 7 figure range) fines for hiring undocumented workers. If any of the workers are mistreated they should be able to turn in their employer.

That will give the workers an upper hand and would prevent them from being taken advantage of. Now the employer can live in fear of being exposed.

Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

#22

Post by yummyfajitas »

izendejas wrote: post #12

If legislators really wanted to reduce illegal immigration they would also go after the demand, implementing tougher penalties against those who hire illegal immigrants^^ or outsource to companies that do. Of course, this will never happen as the walmarts, mcdonalds, big tech corps^, etc will never allow it because surely their costs would go up and so would their prices. Edit: ^ work at a big tech company? A decent…

What are employers supposed to do to avoid hiring illegals? As far as i'm aware, anything beyond "hey, this looks like a crude forgery brown guy" is a discrimination lawsuit in the making.

I have one idea how to get employers to help - offer them amnesty against both penalties and racial discrimination lawsuits if they turn in their illegal workers. We can even reduce disruption to the business by replacing the illegal workers with (currently) unemployed Americans.

I.e., to replace an illegal, select an American currently receiving unemployment. Tell the American that a job has been found for him and terminate his unemployment benefits. We kill two birds with one stone this way.

Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

#23

Post by yummyfajitas »

jackvalentine wrote: post #20
jacoblyles wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

It creates an industry of private businesses that have but one motive: a profit motive. They are therefor motivated to do everything they can to increase incarceration rates to create demand for their services of imprisonment. This article illustrates that pretty clearly. It also creates situations like the corrupt judge/private prison kickback scheme in Pennsylvania recently.(1) We don't need profit-driven companies…

This problem is not limited to the private prison business. In California, for example, the prison guard union is similarly motivated by profits to increase incarceration rates.

In fact, organizations like prison guard unions have stronger motives than multiple private prison corporations. A non-monopolistic prison corporation could easily let their competitors waste money on lobbying and reap the benefits, so any prison corp with small market share has no motive to lobby. The prison guard union reaps all the benefits since they have 100% market share.

Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

#24

Post by anigbrowl »

defen wrote: post #7
anigbrowl wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you should double check that. http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070p.htm http://law.justia.com/arizona/codes/2010/title13/13-702.html http://law.justia.com/arizona/codes/2010/title13/13-703.html http://law.justia.com/arizona/codes/2010/title13/13-707.html

I did, actually. Arizona SB 1070 was superseded by SB 2162: http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg...

Well, the story is about what was in the bill as allegedly drafted by the the prison company, not about the watered-down version that ended up passing. As first submitted to the legislature, it would have allowed for much longer sentences.

Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

#25

Post by Natsu »

firemanx wrote: post #9
credo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The point of the law is "attrition through enforcement" It is much more than that. If you're a US citizen and you're not carrying proof of citizenship, you could get thrown in jail for not having your "papers". Now, I'm sure many citizens feel that their accent or their skin color or some other attribute protects them from sent to jail and that they don't need to carry their papers with them. However, if a cop thi…

Do you have a reference for citizens being able to be sent to jail for not carrying papers? I was under the impression that there was nothing in the bill about putting people in jail. I haven't read the link yet, though, so perhaps it has more details.

Even before this law was passed, I can give you citations for American citizens who have actually been deported. I can't see how this law will make deportation any less likely. Here are some of the first few results:

* http://www.care2.com/causes/human-rights/blog/mentally-disab...

* http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2010/07/report_hundre...

You may notice a common trend among those wrongly deported: they're most often mentally disabled and non-white. It makes the news if and when their family discovers what happened to them. You don't have a right to an attorney if accused of immigration violations (even if you are a US citizen).

I don't believe that a native-born US citizen can be stripped of their citizenship via any means. However, there are ways for naturalized citizens (those born elsewhere who successfully apply for US citizenship) to be stripped of that citizenship after the fact. This usually happens if they lie on their application (and that is the reason they ask questions like "Are you a terrorist?" on that application). There's a discussion of how that works here:

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/376038

Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

#26

Post by Natsu »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #23
jackvalentine wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It creates an industry of private businesses that have but one motive: a profit motive. They are therefor motivated to do everything they can to increase incarceration rates to create demand for their services of imprisonment. This article illustrates that pretty clearly. It also creates situations like the corrupt judge/private prison kickback scheme in Pennsylvania recently.(1) We don't need profit-driven companies…

This problem is not limited to the private prison business. In California, for example, the prison guard union is similarly motivated by profits to increase incarceration rates. In fact, organizations like prison guard unions have stronger motives than multiple private prison corporations. A non-monopolistic prison corporation could easily let their competitors waste money on lobbying and reap the benefits, so any pr…

> This problem is not limited to the private prison business. In California, for example, the prison guard union is similarly motivated by profits to increase incarceration rates.

I happen to think that you're both right. I'd rather not see union-owned or for-profit private prisons due and I'm not convinced that we really have to choose one or the other.

Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

#28

Post by johngalt »

Unchecked undocumented immigration is a problem. There are a lot of people that want to come here for the right reasons and some that want to come here for the wrong reasons. The goal of any immigration reform should be to parse those two groups. Make it easier to be here legitimately to avoid the ongoing exploitation of the people that are here to work. Then focus enforcement on those that are not here legitimately because they are now not hiding among the crowds of people that just want to feed their families. This is what most people in AZ want, but the only lever they have is enforcement, it's not like Arizona can decide to unilaterally grant amnesty.

The idea of "papers please" is reprehensible, but where is the anger at the federal border patrol checkpoints between AZ and CA? An AZ cop asking for a drivers license during a traffic stop is supposedly "draconian fascist evil", but stopping people for no reason driving between two states is considered ok?

Imagine that after 9/11 the rest of the country said "good luck dealing with that terrorism problem NY. We're going to put checkpoints up to make sure those problems stay in your state and not ours."

Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

#29

Post by known »

jackvalentine wrote: post #20
jacoblyles wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

It creates an industry of private businesses that have but one motive: a profit motive. They are therefor motivated to do everything they can to increase incarceration rates to create demand for their services of imprisonment. This article illustrates that pretty clearly. It also creates situations like the corrupt judge/private prison kickback scheme in Pennsylvania recently.(1) We don't need profit-driven companies…

Privatize profits, Socialize losses.

Re: Prison Economics Help Drive Ariz. Immigration Law

#30

Post by hnal943 »

scrod wrote: post #14
izendejas wrote: post #12

If legislators really wanted to reduce illegal immigration they would also go after the demand, implementing tougher penalties against those who hire illegal immigrants^^ or outsource to companies that do. Of course, this will never happen as the walmarts, mcdonalds, big tech corps^, etc will never allow it because surely their costs would go up and so would their prices. Edit: ^ work at a big tech company? A decent…

And in fact, companies that hire illegal immigrants benefit greatly from stricter immigration enforcement; the more pressure from the state that's applied to immigrants, the easier it is for employers to lower their pay, subject them to dangerous and harsh conditions, and occasionally even refuse to compensate them altogether. If they refuse, ICE will deport their families.

ICE should deport them and their families. That would be enforcing federal law.
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