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Designing For Jedi

theferrett.livejournal.com

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Re: Designing For Jedi

#21

Post by kiba »

philwelch wrote: post #13

Reading the Hacker News guidelines, it seems terribly odd that "please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them" is only suggested for comments , because many submissions have this problem as well. (And no, "life was miserable in the era of the robber barons, therefore libertarianism is wrong" isn't anything genuinely new to say, nor is "libertarians secretly…

I also thought it was a flamebait article. Nonetheless , it did generate interesting discussion.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#22

Post by jbooth »

philwelch wrote: post #13

Reading the Hacker News guidelines, it seems terribly odd that "please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them" is only suggested for comments , because many submissions have this problem as well. (And no, "life was miserable in the era of the robber barons, therefore libertarianism is wrong" isn't anything genuinely new to say, nor is "libertarians secretly…

It's election season, and as far as propagandizing, the republicans* have probably had an edge in it on HN. Not that I'm suggesting anything organized on anyone's part, it's just topical right now. It'll drift off the front page soon enough, and all will settle down after Tuesday.

*during the fall of even numbered years, you're either a D or an R unless you actually vote third party

Re: Designing For Jedi

#23

Post by jerf »

jbooth wrote: post #20
jerf wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's two ways to view somebody's political views; one can look at the direction they wish to take a given system, and one can look at the destination they wish to end up at. We tend to classify people by their direction, "right" or "left" or "liberal" or "conservative", but it is a grave error to mistake the direction for the destination. I drive south to get to work but it is not in fact my intention to get to th…

Well, the point of the essay was that your destination, in terms of policy, would most likely lead to the situation he's describing. Take away OSHA, welfare/SS/medicare, the 40-hour work week and the rest of those burdensome regulations and redistributive entitlements and you're pretty much where he described. If you're not that extremist, great. But most libertarians, whether extreme or not, have an annoying tendenc…

While I do appreciate you posting another example of the very mistake I was describing, I still have to admit I'm a little astonished. After all that you still think you actually know me well enough to know what my destination is? Just from the fact that I at one point used the word libertarian?

At what point did I say to take away OSHA, welfare/SS/medicare, the 40-hour workweek (to the extent that it even exists), and etc. etc.? I'm somewhat less concerned about "burdensome regulations" and a lot more worried about crashing the economy right now. How much welfare will exist when the government is bankrupt?

(Er, well, actually that's a bad question. The government is bankrupt. So, how much welfare will exist when everybody realizes the US Federal government is bankrupt?)

The problem you face now when countering people like me and the reason this attitude is on the rise is that the entire premise that everything is fine and we shouldn't cut a dime from government spending and in fact we should spend as much more as possible (is it OK if I just guess at your ideas too?) is that it has become plainly obvious that that is completely fiscally unsustainable, and no amount of moralizing, philosophizing, theorizing, or any other sort of -izing actually adds to the wealth-generation side of the equation. A crashed government does nobody any good. Step one, keep the patient alive; worry about what he's doing and how well he's doing it after you've got that settled.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#24

Post by jbooth »

moultano wrote: post #11
trickjarrett wrote: post #4

It's odd to know Ferrett from the Magic community and then see his link on the tech related site. While very well written and an enjoyable read, my problem with his opinion and the people who think Libertarians = Anarcho-capitalists is that they take it to the complete extreme. Democrats aren't Socialists, etc. My #1 desire with Libertarianism is for a smaller government, not a destroyed government.

I'm tired of the crazy libertarians spoiling it for the rest of us. I would like to have something to call myself that includes removing corn subsidies and capping medicare, but also retaining fiat currency and instituting a carbon tax.

I'd suggest "Democrat" :)

We might not agree with libertarians 100% of the time, but we're not lunatics, we're with you on social issues, not actually that far economically, and we approach problems with the intention of solving/ameliorating them, rather than using them as social dog whistles.

It beats hearing rhetoric about small gov't and then getting Medicare Part D (absolute budget disaster - and obamacare reduces the projected medicare deficit, for those keeping score at home)

Re: Designing For Jedi

#25

Post by jbooth »

jerf wrote: post #23
jbooth wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the point of the essay was that your destination, in terms of policy, would most likely lead to the situation he's describing. Take away OSHA, welfare/SS/medicare, the 40-hour work week and the rest of those burdensome regulations and redistributive entitlements and you're pretty much where he described. If you're not that extremist, great. But most libertarians, whether extreme or not, have an annoying tendenc…

While I do appreciate you posting another example of the very mistake I was describing, I still have to admit I'm a little astonished. After all that you still think you actually know me well enough to know what my destination is? Just from the fact that I at one point used the word libertarian? At what point did I say to take away OSHA, welfare/SS/medicare, the 40-hour workweek (to the extent that it even exists), a…

Hi, please reread? I specifically said not you personally.

And if we're talking about budget balance and actual policy details? Great. That's what most libertarians never ever do, they just prattle on about how less government would be better in theory. Oh, and cut taxes.

So, again, not you specifically, but including you, I've almost never heard a practical policy suggestion from a libertarian. Something like "import drugs from canada, it saves money", or "repeal farm subsidies". All I hear is either the vague "less government" or occasionally the extremist Somalia routine that you very much are not proscribing.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#26

Post by russellallen »

jbooth wrote: post #22
philwelch wrote: post #13

Reading the Hacker News guidelines, it seems terribly odd that "please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them" is only suggested for comments , because many submissions have this problem as well. (And no, "life was miserable in the era of the robber barons, therefore libertarianism is wrong" isn't anything genuinely new to say, nor is "libertarians secretly…

It's election season, and as far as propagandizing, the republicans* have probably had an edge in it on HN. Not that I'm suggesting anything organized on anyone's part, it's just topical right now. It'll drift off the front page soon enough, and all will settle down after Tuesday. *during the fall of even numbered years, you're either a D or an R unless you actually vote third party

Even during the fall of even numbered years, I'm neither a D nor an R. That is because I am an Australian.

Edit: and its Spring now, anyway.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#27

Post by jacoblyles »

jbooth wrote: post #19
jacoblyles wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hasn't wounded my ego, rather I find the article insulting. It caricatures people of my political beliefs as having nasty motivations and abundant personal failings. It reads like an op-ed in a high school Marxist newsletter and is about as balanced. I am fine with reading political articles on Hacker News but I would hope they have a little more respect for their audience. Any Capitalist would make the rejoinder…

Well, in the current political climate? Libertarians are a self-caricature. Not you personally, and sorry, but Carl Paladino's got signs up all over New York state that say "I'm mad too, Carl!". That's literally the guy's slogan, major party candidate for Governor of a large and important state, and his platform is a bunch of incoherent nonsense. And 99% of self-described libertarians are lining up behind these wacko…

Why should I take credit for people I don't agree with? Do you think it fair if I lump you together with people you don't like because they are in roughly the same part of the political spectrum as yourself?

Politics makes people rude and irrational.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#28

Post by InclinedPlane »

jbooth wrote: post #20
jerf wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's two ways to view somebody's political views; one can look at the direction they wish to take a given system, and one can look at the destination they wish to end up at. We tend to classify people by their direction, "right" or "left" or "liberal" or "conservative", but it is a grave error to mistake the direction for the destination. I drive south to get to work but it is not in fact my intention to get to th…

Well, the point of the essay was that your destination, in terms of policy, would most likely lead to the situation he's describing. Take away OSHA, welfare/SS/medicare, the 40-hour work week and the rest of those burdensome regulations and redistributive entitlements and you're pretty much where he described. If you're not that extremist, great. But most libertarians, whether extreme or not, have an annoying tendenc…

The idea that we will end up in a Dickensian (or Somalian) nightmare if we were to reduce the size of the government by any substantial degree (80%? 50%? 20%?) is patently absurd and, hopefully, self-refuting.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#29

Post by widgetycrank »

jacoblyles wrote: post #3

Let's make a deal, you guys refrain from pop-psychoanalyzing those of us with libertarian leanings and I won't submit right-wing essays that diagnose socialists with megalomania and delusions of grandeur. Impugning your opponent's motivations is the lowest form of rhetoric.

>Impugning your opponent's motivations is the lowest form of rhetoric.

I tend to agree with you, then I thought Dr. Strangelove. This seems like a difficult line to draw.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#30

Post by epochwolf »

moultano wrote: post #11
trickjarrett wrote: post #4

It's odd to know Ferrett from the Magic community and then see his link on the tech related site. While very well written and an enjoyable read, my problem with his opinion and the people who think Libertarians = Anarcho-capitalists is that they take it to the complete extreme. Democrats aren't Socialists, etc. My #1 desire with Libertarianism is for a smaller government, not a destroyed government.

I'm tired of the crazy libertarians spoiling it for the rest of us. I would like to have something to call myself that includes removing corn subsidies and capping medicare, but also retaining fiat currency and instituting a carbon tax.

I'm tried of religion being spoiled for the rest of us by a few fanatics.

What is it with religion/politics/"science" that makes person urn their brains off?

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