Live data from Hacker News

Designing For Jedi

theferrett.livejournal.com

11–20 of 41 posts

Re: Designing For Jedi

#11

It's odd to know Ferrett from the Magic community and then see his link on the tech related site. While very well written and an enjoyable read, my problem with his opinion and the people who think Libertarians = Anarcho-capitalists is that they take it to the complete extreme. Democrats aren't Socialists, etc. My #1 desire with Libertarianism is for a smaller government, not a destroyed government.

I'm tired of the crazy libertarians spoiling it for the rest of us. I would like to have something to call myself that includes removing corn subsidies and capping medicare, but also retaining fiat currency and instituting a carbon tax.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#12
post #5

Let's make a deal, you guys refrain from pop-psychoanalyzing those of us with libertarian leanings and I won't submit right-wing essays that diagnose socialists with megalomania and delusions of grandeur. Impugning your opponent's motivations is the lowest form of rhetoric.

It seems the post has wounded your ego, and I guess that's fair enough given it makes such sweeping generalisations (and "pop-psychoanalysis", as it were.) However, I'd be really interested to hear your comments on some of the other points he makes, or the other threads of his argument (particularly, comparisons to history.) (FWIW, I didn't submit the article because I whole-heartedly agree with it, I just thought it…

There's two ways to view somebody's political views; one can look at the direction they wish to take a given system, and one can look at the destination they wish to end up at. We tend to classify people by their direction, "right" or "left" or "liberal" or "conservative", but it is a grave error to mistake the direction for the destination. I drive south to get to work but it is not in fact my intention to get to the South Pole every time I do so; I arrive at my destination and stop, and in fact if I pass it, I will turn around to get there. (It would be absurd in ideological terms to then call me a hypocrite for going from being a Southist to a Northist.)

And it's hard to get past that fundamental error to have some sort of "discussion". I am a libertarian right now, but the caricature in the post is so absurd I can't even take offense. Because I think an entity so utterly absurdly monstrous that its yearly budgetary overruns are measured in the trillions of dollars a year and it's unfunded liabilities measure in the hundreds of trillions should be cut down to size before it takes the entire world over a cliff, I want to see child labor laws repealed? It doesn't even make sense. There's not much to "counter".

In fact I actually consider myself a "Classical Liberal", which today makes you a "conservative" in terms of direction, but my destination isn't "anarchy". Just something much smaller, much more focused, much less resource intensive, and much less likely to crash the economy because there's every incentive to spend and no incentive to stop. (Which I actually consider the fundamental failure of liberalism, it in fact has become a direction and not a destination in practice. If you can identify some principle being used to decide when we have spent enough money on something, I'm all ears. And I mean a principle in use by the government, not some hypothetical principle that could be used by somebody, sometime.) If that's so unreasonable, well, I hope you enjoy the blasted remnants of the economy that results.

Part of the reason I want to see our government cut down to size is that when we crash the system, we will lose welfare and child labor laws and potentially civil order itself. I understand the impulse to circle the wagons and defend the government, but the simple fiscal reality is that if you really do like the results of a strong government capable of protecting its citizens, you really need to help me refocus it on those tasks or you'll be left with a government that can do nothing. Can you seriously imagine child labor laws being repealed in the US? I mean, seriously? This isn't even remotely a threat; economic collapse on the other hand at this point due to an overextended government is more like "can we avoid it or is it too late already?" Probability of a repeal of child labor laws is virtually zero; probability of a government without any ability to pay anyone to enforce them, rather greater than zero even if I am not yet panicking.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#13
Reading the Hacker News guidelines, it seems terribly odd that "please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them" is only suggested for comments, because many submissions have this problem as well. (And no, "life was miserable in the era of the robber barons, therefore libertarianism is wrong" isn't anything genuinely new to say, nor is "libertarians secretly imagine themselves to be the robber barons instead of the tenement-dwelling wage slaves".)

Re: Designing For Jedi

#15
post #14

[deleted]

Actually, many of the criticisms that libertarians make of government explicitly assume that government workers don't deviate in any significant way from the norm. They point out that government is essentially monopolistic. If you have an enterprise that can force its customers to buy its goods then unless the people running the enterprise are perfect angels then the quality of its services will turn to crap over time. Contrast this with a competitive market where a consumer has lots of choice and service providers have incentive to provide the best quality at the lowest cost. If you have the same quality of people employed in both industries, you expect competitive enterprises to produce higher quality goods than monopolies.

Libertarians would argue that a good system is one that is not designed to be run by angels.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#16

It's odd to know Ferrett from the Magic community and then see his link on the tech related site. While very well written and an enjoyable read, my problem with his opinion and the people who think Libertarians = Anarcho-capitalists is that they take it to the complete extreme. Democrats aren't Socialists, etc. My #1 desire with Libertarianism is for a smaller government, not a destroyed government.

I'm tired of the crazy libertarians spoiling it for the rest of us. I would like to have something to call myself that includes removing corn subsidies and capping medicare, but also retaining fiat currency and instituting a carbon tax.

They are just libertarians who take the position to the logical extreme. It's why some libertarian opponents sometime said libertarianism is very consistent.

Being a moderate is nice because you get to be vague and stuff.

However, being a crazy radical actually does have a perk. It make me very open to technologies in a way that's just not possible with other political philosophy.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#18

It's odd to know Ferrett from the Magic community and then see his link on the tech related site. While very well written and an enjoyable read, my problem with his opinion and the people who think Libertarians = Anarcho-capitalists is that they take it to the complete extreme. Democrats aren't Socialists, etc. My #1 desire with Libertarianism is for a smaller government, not a destroyed government.

What's the easiest way to make an organization get smaller?

Unpopularity.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#19
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems the post has wounded your ego, and I guess that's fair enough given it makes such sweeping generalisations (and "pop-psychoanalysis", as it were.) However, I'd be really interested to hear your comments on some of the other points he makes, or the other threads of his argument (particularly, comparisons to history.) (FWIW, I didn't submit the article because I whole-heartedly agree with it, I just thought it…

It hasn't wounded my ego, rather I find the article insulting. It caricatures people of my political beliefs as having nasty motivations and abundant personal failings. It reads like an op-ed in a high school Marxist newsletter and is about as balanced. I am fine with reading political articles on Hacker News but I would hope they have a little more respect for their audience. Any Capitalist would make the rejoinder…

Well, in the current political climate? Libertarians are a self-caricature. Not you personally, and sorry, but Carl Paladino's got signs up all over New York state that say "I'm mad too, Carl!". That's literally the guy's slogan, major party candidate for Governor of a large and important state, and his platform is a bunch of incoherent nonsense. And 99% of self-described libertarians are lining up behind these wackos all over the country.

Sorry that the crazies are ruining your rep.. but if you don't want it to happen, don't enable the crazies.

Re: Designing For Jedi

#20
post #12
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems the post has wounded your ego, and I guess that's fair enough given it makes such sweeping generalisations (and "pop-psychoanalysis", as it were.) However, I'd be really interested to hear your comments on some of the other points he makes, or the other threads of his argument (particularly, comparisons to history.) (FWIW, I didn't submit the article because I whole-heartedly agree with it, I just thought it…

There's two ways to view somebody's political views; one can look at the direction they wish to take a given system, and one can look at the destination they wish to end up at. We tend to classify people by their direction, "right" or "left" or "liberal" or "conservative", but it is a grave error to mistake the direction for the destination. I drive south to get to work but it is not in fact my intention to get to th…

Well, the point of the essay was that your destination, in terms of policy, would most likely lead to the situation he's describing. Take away OSHA, welfare/SS/medicare, the 40-hour work week and the rest of those burdensome regulations and redistributive entitlements and you're pretty much where he described.

If you're not that extremist, great. But most libertarians, whether extreme or not, have an annoying tendency to approach every problem like they've studied it for decades and the answer is "less government". That's it! No need to know anything about the subject or even attempt to justify such a self-evident claim. In those cases it's hard to resist the Somalia retort.

Post reply on HN