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NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

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Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#331

Post by chiefalchemist »

ConcernedCoder wrote: post #199
chiefalchemist wrote: post #131

Let's be clear, the free market this is not. It's yet another perfect example of government gone wild. It's one thing for to use taxpayer monies to create jobs and job opportunity (i.e., education). That's a reasonable expectation within the scope of gov's governing. However, it's another thing for gov to buy jobs - and thus votes - by effectively subsidizing some mega-corporation. If Amazon needs money, that's what…

Wisconsin spends 4 billion in tax breaks to attract a Taiwanese manufacturer ( FoxConn ) and nobody bats an eye...

Eyes were batted.

Let's also note that FoxConn is not Amazon. Also, NYC doesn't really have a problem attracting employers - especially not one who is likely to crush their local economy one same day deliver at a time.

Your point is valid. But the scale and precedent of this latest "deal" is more questionable.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#332

Post by chiefalchemist »

harryh wrote: post #262
nerdponx wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Housing is going up like crazy in New York, it's just not affordable.

That's because the city doesn't let people build enough new supply. THAT'S REALLY BAD. And it's the fault of city government, not Amazon or any other company.

Actually, my understanding is there is a fairly significant amount of housing (pretty much everywhere?) that for one reason or another is kept off the market. (Likely due to some other gov policy? Maybe?)

That is, there is capacity but supply is being held back.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#333

Post by harryh »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #332
harryh wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because the city doesn't let people build enough new supply. THAT'S REALLY BAD. And it's the fault of city government, not Amazon or any other company.

Actually, my understanding is there is a fairly significant amount of housing (pretty much everywhere?) that for one reason or another is kept off the market. (Likely due to some other gov policy? Maybe?) That is, there is capacity but supply is being held back.

Your understanding is wrong. Residential vacancy rates are tiny in most big cities.

In the few exceptions (like Seattle for example) where they aren't tiny due to new supply: surprise! rents are dropping.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#334

Post by rayiner »

pasbesoin wrote: post #297
rayiner wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ameritech/SBC, now AT&T, received, IIRC, circa $750 million in incentives to deploy universal access to high speed Internet throughout Illinois. Are you talking about the Ameritech/SBC merger?

It was around that time; I no longer remember what name they were carrying at what points during that process. They subsequently acquired the remains of AT&T; a few other things, and the name with which they subsequently rebranded themselves. My point was more the "money for nothing" aspect; I merely don't remember off the cuff what exact name/branding they had at that point in time. Ameritech got bought out by ("mer…

I ask because I can't find anything about the "money for nothing" aspect. From the contemporaneous news articles, I see there was a lawsuit with Illinois over merger conditions. Governments don't typically give "money for nothing" for a merger in a regulated industry--regulatory bodies basically have veto authority over the merger (they can blow the whole thing up by denying transfer of various licenses) and use that power to extract various concessions.

I mean it could be some other program, of course. I'm just trying to figure out the history.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#335

Post by chiefalchemist »

harryh wrote: post #333
chiefalchemist wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, my understanding is there is a fairly significant amount of housing (pretty much everywhere?) that for one reason or another is kept off the market. (Likely due to some other gov policy? Maybe?) That is, there is capacity but supply is being held back.

Your understanding is wrong. Residential vacancy rates are tiny in most big cities. In the few exceptions (like Seattle for example) where they aren't tiny due to new supply: surprise! rents are dropping.

Link please.

But yes, of the housing available in the market, tiny. But there's plenty of housing held off the market.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#336

Post by ataturk »

linkmotif wrote: post #293
brownbat wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares? Amazon is a great company in a lot of ways, not great in some other ways, and none of that has anything to do with my opinions on local governance. Or as Yogi Berra might have put it, this Amazon story isn't really about Amazon anyway.

Because the reason you buy things on Amazon is because they get you the best deal and they get you the best deal because they get the best deals. They get the best deal by exploiting workers in American warehouses, exploiting workers in Chinese factories or exploiting the citizens of New York. Either way, exploitation gets you that deal. Those guys who aren’t as effective at exploitation as Amazon? Well, you don’t sh…

[dead]

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#337

Post by giarc »

vthallam wrote: post #23
giarc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That $10 billion likely assumes all new staff. There are going to be many current NYC citizens who simply switch jobs to Amazon. Therefore they won't contribute any incremental tax increase. Only if their previous employer rehires their position will a net new position be created.

Why wouldn't the previous employer rehire though? Unless the employee is someone who was just sitting around and not contributing to the company.

Unemployment is ~3% and Amazon comes in and sweeps up all the available (and non available) tech employees in the area. They may want to hire, but can't.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#338

Post by giarc »

cddotdotslash wrote: post #29
giarc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That $10 billion likely assumes all new staff. There are going to be many current NYC citizens who simply switch jobs to Amazon. Therefore they won't contribute any incremental tax increase. Only if their previous employer rehires their position will a net new position be created.

I find it hard to believe that 25,000 people are moving jobs and their previous employers are saying "we're not replacing them."

I never said 25,000 people would be from neighbouring companies, just that a non-zero percent would be from the area already. So they aren't going to contribute incremental tax increases.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#339

Post by giarc »

slimed wrote: post #22
giarc wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That $10 billion likely assumes all new staff. There are going to be many current NYC citizens who simply switch jobs to Amazon. Therefore they won't contribute any incremental tax increase. Only if their previous employer rehires their position will a net new position be created.

Why would their tech sector employer not rehire for their position?

Labour shortage related to big new employer hiring everyone.

Re: NY state tax break is $48k per Amazon HQ job

#340

Post by dwild »

grecy wrote: post #312
smsm42 wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of your screed about how US sucks has nothing to do with Amazon or why Amazon deal is bad. > When a trillion dollar company gets to pay less that they're supposed to, it makes society worse, not better. That's where you went wrong. A trillion dollar company is not supposed to pay anything to New York. The minimum NY was getting is $0. That's the starting point. Amazon is free to locate HQ in any other place and…

> A trillion dollar company is not supposed to pay anything to New York. The minimum NY was getting is $0. That's the starting point. Your entire post just described, by definition, a race to the bottom. Obviously the US is winning that race relative to other developed countries, but I'm staggered you think it's a good thing. It's absurd to think Amazon is doing NY a favor by bringing more than $0. That's like if I w…

> You are right that NY will get more money now that if Amazon had not come, but that's also true that my life would be better getting $1/hr than $0/hr.

That's a pretty bad comparison. Why would I take the $1 job? I got way more currently. The only reason I would do it is because I'm trapped and I NEED this $1 to live.

Does NYC is trapped right now? Does they NEED that $1 to live? Not at all, they are perfectly fine, they are the definition of not needing that $1.

So it's more like, you are making 75$/h, Amazon is looking for some part time employee and you do happen to have a few hours left in your week that can fit that. They want to know what you can do for them for theses few hours and you accept after a few rounds of negotiation. It's a 2 ways street, Amazon give to the city and the city give to Amazon. What Amazon offer has a value to the city but what the city offer to Amazon has a value too.

There's no regulation for wage increase, is it? There's only a minimum, because it's when you are at the bottom that it can be abused. Once you are not at the bottom, you can negotiate as much as you want. It's the same here.

The big question is how can we make sure we don't abuse that minimum, but that's a whole other issue.

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