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Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

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Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#11

Post by bretthopper »

jcroll wrote: post #10

I live in Toronto and the pilot project remains a very controversial decision basically pitting the interests of commuters against car drivers in what is for all intents and purposes a zero-sum game. The next question is whether there's a solution where everyone wins and the most immediate idea is a subway running down that corridor. Of course, the amount of disruption that would bring to businesses already crying fo…

Why do you think this is a zero-sum game?

That's only if the number of car drivers is equal to transit riders + cyclists (and maybe some pedestrians).

Of course that equation is nowhere near equal. The entire reason behind the pilot is because transit vastly outnumbers car drivers.

If you can improve the situation for 10-100x as many people, then why wouldn't you? (all else being equal of course). I'm simplifying things, but I don't understand why you're implying equal footing to both sides.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#12

Post by jcroll »

bretthopper wrote: post #11
jcroll wrote: post #10

I live in Toronto and the pilot project remains a very controversial decision basically pitting the interests of commuters against car drivers in what is for all intents and purposes a zero-sum game. The next question is whether there's a solution where everyone wins and the most immediate idea is a subway running down that corridor. Of course, the amount of disruption that would bring to businesses already crying fo…

Why do you think this is a zero-sum game? That's only if the number of car drivers is equal to transit riders + cyclists (and maybe some pedestrians). Of course that equation is nowhere near equal. The entire reason behind the pilot is because transit vastly outnumbers car drivers. If you can improve the situation for 10-100x as many people, then why wouldn't you? (all else being equal of course). I'm simplifying thi…

It's like nominating a supreme court justice is a zero sum game. Is it really? Either way, you'll never convince both sides that one decision isn't a loser for them

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#13

Post by hourislate »

blakesterz wrote: post #3

Buffalo tried this a few decades ago and it did NOT work. The entire area died, all the restaurants & retail closed. It took millions of dollars and many years to undo it and now the area is back and full of people. I don't know for sure the blame lies entirely on the clearing of cars idea, but that sure didn't help. The city (like many) fell pretty hard for a bunch of reasons at the time they tried this. https://www…

I have read some of the restaurants along that stretch of road in Toronto have closed or will be closing. They have said business has fallen off the cliff.

https://www.blogto.com/eat_drink/2018/07/pearl-king-street-t...

https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/king-st-pilot-forces-...

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2018/01/22/king-st-business...

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#14

Post by ams6110 »

jcroll wrote: post #10

I live in Toronto and the pilot project remains a very controversial decision basically pitting the interests of commuters against car drivers in what is for all intents and purposes a zero-sum game. The next question is whether there's a solution where everyone wins and the most immediate idea is a subway running down that corridor. Of course, the amount of disruption that would bring to businesses already crying fo…

Dense urban centers is one place where I, normally an advocate for privately owned automobiles, think they do not make sense. Too many people in too small a space for everyone to have and use his own car.

I don't live in such an environment, and would never want to.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#15

Post by jgh »

bretthopper wrote: post #11
jcroll wrote: post #10

I live in Toronto and the pilot project remains a very controversial decision basically pitting the interests of commuters against car drivers in what is for all intents and purposes a zero-sum game. The next question is whether there's a solution where everyone wins and the most immediate idea is a subway running down that corridor. Of course, the amount of disruption that would bring to businesses already crying fo…

Why do you think this is a zero-sum game? That's only if the number of car drivers is equal to transit riders + cyclists (and maybe some pedestrians). Of course that equation is nowhere near equal. The entire reason behind the pilot is because transit vastly outnumbers car drivers. If you can improve the situation for 10-100x as many people, then why wouldn't you? (all else being equal of course). I'm simplifying thi…

According to this article prior to the change: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/why-all-the-fus...

it was 65,000 transit commuters per day vs 20,000 vehicles per day.

edit, here is the latest data from the city: https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/8fe2-King-... (sept/oct is not yet available which is unfortunate because the baseline is october 2017)

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#16

Post by lambersley »

bretthopper wrote: post #11
jcroll wrote: post #10

I live in Toronto and the pilot project remains a very controversial decision basically pitting the interests of commuters against car drivers in what is for all intents and purposes a zero-sum game. The next question is whether there's a solution where everyone wins and the most immediate idea is a subway running down that corridor. Of course, the amount of disruption that would bring to businesses already crying fo…

Why do you think this is a zero-sum game? That's only if the number of car drivers is equal to transit riders + cyclists (and maybe some pedestrians). Of course that equation is nowhere near equal. The entire reason behind the pilot is because transit vastly outnumbers car drivers. If you can improve the situation for 10-100x as many people, then why wouldn't you? (all else being equal of course). I'm simplifying thi…

It simply moved the traffic to the parallel streets thus worsening congesting in the city overall. The overall utilization of an expensive infrastructure is very low. The "440%" increase in cyclist is unlikely to equal the number of people moved through that corridor via motor vehicles.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#17

Post by canistr »

You know what else the city could do to clear cars along a major transit corridor?

Stop allowing taxis to park on Richmond just outside the Hilton hotel at University.

Those taxis & cars parked at Richmond & University are singlehandedly responsible for the traffic along Richmond coming off the DVP. It blocks the left-hand turning traffic leaving effectively only a single lane crossing University.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#18

Post by lambersley »

"And it worked" is somewhat of a misnomer. If you asked the hundreds of businesses (bars, cafes, restaurants, etc), they might have a different opinion. Motor vehicles are allowed to travel 1 block then forced to make the next right turn. The human traffic along the corridor has significantly decreased. The businesses are suffering. At minimum, ride-sharing services should be allowed to traverse that corridor unimpeded.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#19

Post by andruc »

lambersley wrote: post #18

"And it worked" is somewhat of a misnomer. If you asked the hundreds of businesses (bars, cafes, restaurants, etc), they might have a different opinion. Motor vehicles are allowed to travel 1 block then forced to make the next right turn. The human traffic along the corridor has significantly decreased. The businesses are suffering. At minimum, ride-sharing services should be allowed to traverse that corridor unimped…

I suppose you didn't make it to the end? "Toronto reports business receipts are up along the corridor as well, albeit a tiny 0.3 percent" is hardly suffering.

Re: Toronto Cleared Cars Off a Major Transit Corridor

#20

Post by danielvf »

andruc wrote: post #19
lambersley wrote: post #18

"And it worked" is somewhat of a misnomer. If you asked the hundreds of businesses (bars, cafes, restaurants, etc), they might have a different opinion. Motor vehicles are allowed to travel 1 block then forced to make the next right turn. The human traffic along the corridor has significantly decreased. The businesses are suffering. At minimum, ride-sharing services should be allowed to traverse that corridor unimped…

I suppose you didn't make it to the end? "Toronto reports business receipts are up along the corridor as well, albeit a tiny 0.3 percent" is hardly suffering.

..while "the rest of the city was up 3.8 percent over the same period."

Taking inflation into account, downtown receipts are lower than they were before.

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