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Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

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Re: Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

#61
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody owed small bookstores a living. By saying that you're basically throwing the whole concept of "fairness" out of the window, so that's no argument. In my view, Amazon does provide a more complete service than smaller bookstores, but they achieved this with external money; money obtained from outside the book-selling business. A similar thing is happening to restaurant owners. Companies like Uber Eats (started…

> > Nobody owed small bookstores a living. > By saying that you're basically throwing the whole concept of "fairness" out of the window, so that's no argument. Not at all. I'm saying that, if the small bookstores are less efficient at providing books to people, then there is room for a more efficient competitor to drive them out of business without any unfair competition taking place. > In my view, Amazon does provid…

> You seem to be declaring all outside capital investment to be unfair

Let's take the Uber Eats example. You think that restaurants owe Uber money for simply being present on their platform (necessary for survival these days for restaurant owners). But Uber doesn't owe restaurants anything?

It's not investments that are the problem. It's the way whole professions are "enslaved" by investors who simply make a pile of money, scale things up and build a portal, which then becomes the new market leader.

(Of course, if you keep thinking inside the box of the free-market, then you will think this is all ok, but that is not the point).

Re: Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

#62
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> monopoly is used as shorthand for monopoly power No, it is used as shorthand for "market share in a market I define arbitrarily". Proving monopoly power is a much more complex and academic process.

Antitrust law is based on it. You can read here how it is defined and identified in practice. https://www.justice.gov/atr/competition-and-monopoly-single-...

Yep, and from the link:

The Supreme Court has defined market power as "the ability to raise prices above those that would be charged in a competitive market,"(8) and monopoly power as "the power to control prices or exclude competition."

Those are the tests you need to pass to take action. And measuring that is a highly academic exercise.

Just go talk to the economics professors and consultants that act as experts in those cases.

Re: Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

#63
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody owed small bookstores a living. By saying that you're basically throwing the whole concept of "fairness" out of the window, so that's no argument. In my view, Amazon does provide a more complete service than smaller bookstores, but they achieved this with external money; money obtained from outside the book-selling business. A similar thing is happening to restaurant owners. Companies like Uber Eats (started…

>By saying that you're basically throwing the whole concept of "fairness" out of the window, so that's no argument. Is fairness forcing people to spend more money on less desirable products and firms simply because those firms exist? That seems pretty unfair to me. And it's been shown to be bad economics time and time again. Fair seems letting people decide which business they want to purchase from, even if that mean…

It's not a matter of all or nothing.

A different way, for example, would be for Amazon to let small bookstores share in the profits, as a compensation for putting them out of business in such unfair way.

(That would be fair, but it is unfortunately not how we have organised things.)

Re: Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

#64
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody owed small bookstores a living. By saying that you're basically throwing the whole concept of "fairness" out of the window, so that's no argument. In my view, Amazon does provide a more complete service than smaller bookstores, but they achieved this with external money; money obtained from outside the book-selling business. A similar thing is happening to restaurant owners. Companies like Uber Eats (started…

> > Nobody owed small bookstores a living. > By saying that you're basically throwing the whole concept of "fairness" out of the window, so that's no argument. Not at all. I'm saying that, if the small bookstores are less efficient at providing books to people, then there is room for a more efficient competitor to drive them out of business without any unfair competition taking place. > In my view, Amazon does provid…

The large failure of your argument is that those competitors are not more actually more efficient. This is why large companies are harmful even before they reach the distinction of monopoly; although as an aside I see people here making arguments that monopolies cannot exist.

Uber for example is not more efficient than RideAustin, the local non-profit ridesharing alternative. What they do have however, is a large amount of funding behind them which allows them to artificially lower the true cost and choke out competitors. Once they've bled the competition dry, they can raise the prices again and benefit from full control over various parts of a market.

This is the same tactic that Walmart has used in order to destroy many local towns by severely undercutting local businesses into oblivion. We should consider this to be an objectively bad thing, considering if said sole company ends up leaving the area due to profitability reasons they leave the residents with nothing [1].

This is how the 'free market' works in practice. The largest companies with the most money don't actually compete on the same level as local companies and it would be naive to think that small bookstores vanishing is solely due to inefficiency.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/09/what-happene...

Re: Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

#65
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Nobody owed small bookstores a living. > By saying that you're basically throwing the whole concept of "fairness" out of the window, so that's no argument. Not at all. I'm saying that, if the small bookstores are less efficient at providing books to people, then there is room for a more efficient competitor to drive them out of business without any unfair competition taking place. > In my view, Amazon does provid…

> You seem to be declaring all outside capital investment to be unfair Let's take the Uber Eats example. You think that restaurants owe Uber money for simply being present on their platform (necessary for survival these days for restaurant owners). But Uber doesn't owe restaurants anything? It's not investments that are the problem. It's the way whole professions are "enslaved" by investors who simply make a pile of…

Is being present on Uber Eats really necessary for a restaurant's survival these days? If so, why? Is it because Uber Eats has become how customers find restaurants? And if so, how has it done so? It wasn't just by having a lot of money and setting up a website. (See pets.com for a counterexample.)

Uber Eats provides value to (at least some) eaters, who therefore use it to decide which restaurants to patronize. (I can't tell you why they do so; I don't use it myself, and I don't understand why anyone would want to.) The restaurants then have to be part of Uber Eats (at a cost), or to miss out on those customers who use Uber Eats. If Uber Eats charges more than it's worth, then the restaurants won't sign up.

> It's not investments that are the problem. It's the way whole professions are "enslaved" by investors who simply make a pile of money, scale things up and build a portal, which then becomes the new market leader.

You don't become a market leader by having a lot of money and building a portal. You do it by providing something that people want enough for them to use your portal. Otherwise you get ignored.

> (Of course, if you keep thinking inside the box of the free-market, then you will think this is all ok, but that is not the point).

I think my box matches the reality of the world more than your box does. Maybe you need to think outside of your box a bit too...

Re: Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

#66
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) They are monopolies by the classic definition. b) "a monopoly is perfectly fine, AS LONG AS the economic power isn't abused to prevent competition which harms consumers." This is kind of a non sequitur ... Of course they will prevent competition, that's the essential name of the game. Every company does this - this is not 'abuse' it's just how it works. Ergo, by your definition monopolies are all bad. I actually t…

I frequently see people say "Google should be broken up" and I want to hear more on that argument. Meaning Google and Youtube should be separated? but then we're no longer talking about just their search dominance right? How could search alone be broken up if a large part of the complaint is about the dominance of their search? Moreover, it is pretty easy to not use google search? Why couldn't someone use DDG, Yahoo,…

There are two arguments, one is about Search as a monopoly the other is about that power as it relates to other parts of the value chain.

Google search is fundamentally better than DDG (for most purposes) because it has massive advantages that make it effectively unassailable. For example, I stopped using DDG because I rely on reverse image search. FYI DDG does not have its own crawler, it gets data from other sources. And it won't get reverse image search unless it does it itself ... which I doubt will happen. Maybe. And of course Yahoo is not a search engine either, it's not really an alternative at all.

In order to compete with Google effectively, you'd have to build your own crawler etc.. It's essentially impossible. The number of engineers, data centres other components ... my gosh man.

Consider for a moment that Google is a massive cash printing machine. Do you not think that VC's would be lining up, piling billions of dollars into competitors in order to take a piece of the action?

Why is nobody - not even intelligent actors with a lot of cash to burn - investing in the most profitable business model of our era?

Because the barriers to compete are absurdly high.

It's a monopoly.

And if it is - then we have to be very concerned about their relationship to adjacent layers of the value chain because of their ability to subsidize products to put others out of business.

So you're aware that in free trade deals between nations, part of the deal includes measures to bar state actors from participating in some economies, and also, rules against 'dumping'. This is because if a nation state actor wants to, they could subsidize their own industries, wipe out competition in other nations, and then let their industry dominate.

The same applies in value chain monopolies.

Standard Oil didn't have 'better oil' or better practices than other Oil companies - they used control and ownership of the railroads to increase prices on their competitors and put them out of business. In a truly competitive landscape, there would be no Standard Oil.

When Microsoft uses their ownership of the OS to put all other 'Office' solutions out of business, is that good for consumers?

By the way - MS is still printing money hands over fist in Office Software. They are making billions. They are a de-facto standard, arguably a monopoly there. Why aren't investors lining up to create competitive solutions? (Because it's an unassailable monopoly).

If Google decides to get into your line of business, and you are small, they will absolutely wipe you out if they want to, and it has nothing to do with having 'a better product'.

Also consider for a moment how many of Google's other business parts could stand on their own as businesses?

Google Analytics? Android? Chrome? Google Docs? Maps?

They are all all money pits, strategic investments (i.e. 'moats') by Google to ensure the dominance of Google Search.

How could a mobile OS vendor compete in a market where Google is using billions from one market, to dominate a different one, like mobile OS? They can't. Maybe in China, wherein there are non-market factors to protect their own makers.

For the same reason that governments have mostly separated the transport of electricity from electricity production, for the same reason we have net neutrality, Google Search should possibly be pared off from the other businesses.

Amazon is using massive profits from AWS to put retailers out of business. Amazon is not hugely profitable, but their AWS business unit is, ergo, the retail unit is probably losing money.

How can retailers compete against Amazon, which is effectively selling at a loss? They can't.

Consumers generally don't win when a de-facto or real monopoly in one market, uses that power to wipe out competition in others.

There is essentially no real competition in search, nobody is putting money in it. Same for office software. Given how much money is being minted in those markets, it's a sure sign of monopoly.

Re: Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

#67
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As long as Coke's actions are not stopping competition in that larger market with the result of harming consumers, why should anyone care? This makes sense as a theory, but in practice, monopolies never exist without abuse/harm. It's likely the only way to sell a single brand to wildly varying customers with different tastes.

But that isn't a monopoly. Imagine Coca-Cola creates a new flavor, with a taste so unique that nobody else is able to replicate it. Is that a monopoly? Is Coca-Cola abusing its power? No, and no.

As others have pointed out, you just seem to be using a different definition than the rest of us are.

A single, unreplicated product is never considered a monopoly. A monopoly implies that customers don't have an alternative.

Re: Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

#68
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) They are monopolies by the classic definition. b) "a monopoly is perfectly fine, AS LONG AS the economic power isn't abused to prevent competition which harms consumers." This is kind of a non sequitur ... Of course they will prevent competition, that's the essential name of the game. Every company does this - this is not 'abuse' it's just how it works. Ergo, by your definition monopolies are all bad. I actually t…

I frequently see people say "Google should be broken up" and I want to hear more on that argument. Meaning Google and Youtube should be separated? but then we're no longer talking about just their search dominance right? How could search alone be broken up if a large part of the complaint is about the dominance of their search? Moreover, it is pretty easy to not use google search? Why couldn't someone use DDG, Yahoo,…

IMO, the right approach to regulating Google is similar to the regulations pre-breakup imposed on AT&T. Stuff like all patents and technology must be made public, interoperability, etc.

Re: Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

#69
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) They are monopolies by the classic definition. b) "a monopoly is perfectly fine, AS LONG AS the economic power isn't abused to prevent competition which harms consumers." This is kind of a non sequitur ... Of course they will prevent competition, that's the essential name of the game. Every company does this - this is not 'abuse' it's just how it works. Ergo, by your definition monopolies are all bad. I actually t…

I frequently see people say "Google should be broken up" and I want to hear more on that argument. Meaning Google and Youtube should be separated? but then we're no longer talking about just their search dominance right? How could search alone be broken up if a large part of the complaint is about the dominance of their search? Moreover, it is pretty easy to not use google search? Why couldn't someone use DDG, Yahoo,…

The argument goes roughly as follows:

Google is able to use its lead in search to exert undue influence on other markets. Google can (and has) ocassionaly placed banners suggesting a switch to chrome, influencing the browser market. Google showcases YouTube videos above other video results, regardless of the relative merits of the videos. Similar things in other verticals.

Additionally, search dominance leads to dominance in the related search ads and text ads generally space. In part, because of market size, Yahoo was unable to attract the same kind of advertising market as Google, and famously chose to contract that out to Microsoft, which also was unable to make it work well. I was at Yahoo during parts of that time, and my feeling is that market size wasn't a big part of that failure, but it could be argued that it was a part.

Is any of this compelling enough to be worth an anti-trust case? I don't think so, but maybe?

How could you break up Google if this was considered egrigious enough? Split into several actually separate companies: software, containing chrome, android, and chrome os; search, providing web search apis, but not a front end; advertising, providing advertising apis, but not hosting any sites that use then; consumer services, including a web search front end, Gmail, YouTube, etc; business services, including the Google cloud stuff and maybe g suite; I dunno about the alphabet soup bits. Make the search and ads services contracts be on FRAND and public terms.

Re: Google, Facebook, and Amazon benefit from an outdated definition of “monopoly”

#70

It isn't outdated, it is an economics definition of a monopoly, and isn't even that: a monopoly is perfectly fine, AS LONG AS the economic power isn't abused to prevent competition which harms consumers. What the author is proposing is that regulation is no longer based on economics and economic power, but on a vague definition of monopoly, and people are absurdly trigger-happy when calling something a monopoly. The…

> The classic example is: Coca-Cola has a 95% market share of the cola market in some countries. Does it mean it has a monopoly? No. Effectively, yes. Why is the market so disfunctional that a single company has effectively swallowed all competition? > If it had 100% of the cola market, would it have a monopoly? No. Err, yes. > Because the cola market doesn't exist in isolation. Colas compete with all other sodas, wi…

> Why is the market so disfunctional that a single company has effectively swallowed all competition?

This is actually pretty common in hypercompetitive commodity markets. The largest player has a slight cost advantage due to economies of scale, so they have the best price and everyone buys from them. But they still have no market power because their market share doesn't come from barriers to entry.

> Err, yes.

It's not necessarily a monopoly even at 100% when there are competitors who could immediately enter the market if the incumbent were to be so audacious as to raise prices by 4%, or do anything else the customer even mildly dislikes -- because that fact keeps them from ever doing it.

Notice that this is not how it works for Comcast, because it's not cheap or quick to wire a city with fiber, so they can get away with a great deal of abuse before anyone else would show up to compete -- even if they only had 50% market share, as long as the other 50% is another company doing all the same abusive stuff.

> And AT&T wasn't a monopoly, since you could just walk to the person you want to talk to. Oh, wait..

To be a substitute it has to be a practical alternative that can be used for the same purpose at approximately the same cost. Having to spend an hour walking is not the same cost as picking up the phone.

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