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Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

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Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#521

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

xrd wrote: post #339
TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that more convenient than a bank transfer? Now the other party needs to sign up to a bitcoin exchange.

I'd say absolutely. I don't know of a bank where I can set up an account completely online through an app, which you can do with cex.io or coinbase. It's gotten harder but generally you create an account and then upload your ID and then can buy very soon afterwards. That makes it tenable in my opinion to ask even the most Luddite of friends to do it before the event and then pay people back that way.

But how do they get their money out of the exchange?

In the example provided I’m sending my pal BTC for some shared purchase because there’s no cash.

My friend didn’t have a BTC address / wallet or whatever, now they do, and I’ve just transferred them 0.0028 BTC to cover my share of lunch.

Now what?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#522

Post by masonic »

Aeolun wrote: post #373
addicted wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t you load the same amount of money on your bracelet before the festival as the cash you would be carrying? If that’s because the festival organizers don’t let you retrieve your money easily or without a cost, that’s an issue with the festival management and not with the idea of digital money. I’ve been to a festival which allowed us to withdraw money freely (I think they had some restrictions such as only 1…

I think my problem with this comes down to ‘why the fuck are you bothering me with this?!’. We have perfectly valid working payment systems (cash, debit/credit), and for some reason you’ve decided that your festivals proprietary payment system is better? Have to load money, have to retrieve money, and have zero insight into how much I’ve already spent without even more apps or interfaces.

  have zero insight into how much I’ve already spent
Maybe that's a key motivator?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#523

Post by thomasz »

beefield wrote: post #471
Aeolun wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my problem with this comes down to ‘why the fuck are you bothering me with this?!’. We have perfectly valid working payment systems (cash, debit/credit), and for some reason you’ve decided that your festivals proprietary payment system is better? Have to load money, have to retrieve money, and have zero insight into how much I’ve already spent without even more apps or interfaces.

> why the fuck are you bothering me with this? Handling cash is a hassle in many ways: 1. It's slow. Obviously it is not slow in the best case when the customer throws in the exact change, but it is _really_ slow in the probably more typical case when the drunkard is at the counter and starts to dig into the pockets and find out if he has enough coins or when the seventh customer in the row wants to pay his ten cent…

It's only slow because you are not used to paying with cash. Most payments are done with cash here, and the few people paying with cards cause small but noticeable delays. Counting cash is usually faster than handling a card reader, entering the PIN and whatnot. The odd drunkard or elderly customer is comparable to the odd technical problem, which usually takes longer to resolve.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#524

Post by tjoff »

anoncake wrote: post #515
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? You can get Swish on the App Store or Google Play for any country, and it works with any phone number, Swedish or not. The only requirements are that you 1) have a Swedish bank account that supports the service (not all banks do), and 2) have Mobilt BankID on your phone. If you possess a Swedish bank account and are in the Swedish Population Register, you should be able to get Mobilt BankID on your phone (which…

> Huh? You can get Swish on the App Store or Google Play for any country, and it works with any phone number, Swedish or not. That sounds like it makes it impossible for any other phone OS to enter the Swedish market.

Depending on your bank you might need a Swedish phone number, but you actually don't need a phone to receive money. (In reality the phone number has nothing to do with it, it's just a pre-existing ID)

You need the app to be able to send money though (iOS, android or windows phone).

Yes it is stupid. Unfortunately it is convenient, which is enough for 95% of the population.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#525

Post by masonic »

Spooky23 wrote: post #470
kalleboo wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that just replacing cash with monopoly money?

No, you have the stoners pour beer and don’t let them handle cash. The people who handle cash don’t handle beer. It’s a fairly typical internal control for that type of operation.

Generally, the purpose of the drink-ticket model is to ensure accurate sales reporting so that the festival or venue gets its full "cut".

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#526

Post by tigershark »

Spooky23 wrote: post #262
bamboozled wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best payment experience I’ve had is cash. I pay for what I need and when I leave the festival I can still use my “credits” hassle free anywhere I like.

It is quite liberating. My family went cash only a couple of years ago. We spend less and tbh there isn’t much downside.

How do you buy online with cash only? I’m in the opposite situation, I pay everything with cards and I couldn’t be happier.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#527

Post by stale2002 »

gammateam wrote: post #475
stale2002 wrote: post #350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lightning + Watchtowers it's coming Just another 18 month from now and I'm sure it will be finished. I myself need to pay for food right now and I do not have time to wait for a solution that is perpetually years from completion.

Lightning is available now. The 18 months meme was regarding when it wasn't. If you want to perpetuate that criticism, you'll need up to date arguments: Lightning is cumbersome to use and impractical because of the requirement to run a personal full node to connect to AND your device running the payment channel needs to always ben online for the duration of the payment channel. "Watchtowers" solve both of these issue…

There is no updating of arguments necessary.

The problem in Bitcoin today are the same problem that have existed for years.

That problem being that there are too many people focused on esoteric solutions, like watchtowers, 2nd layers, and even 3rd layers, that only developers care about. And not enough people talking to customers or merchants, and building things that make Bitcoin work as an actual currency.

Seeing as the whole point of this stuff is to work as a currency, it seems like this should be important.

It is a rare few companies, such as BitPay, that are building things like point of sale devices that actually make it possible for consumers to buy things from merchants.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#528

Post by Freak_NL »

beefield wrote: post #471
Aeolun wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my problem with this comes down to ‘why the fuck are you bothering me with this?!’. We have perfectly valid working payment systems (cash, debit/credit), and for some reason you’ve decided that your festivals proprietary payment system is better? Have to load money, have to retrieve money, and have zero insight into how much I’ve already spent without even more apps or interfaces.

> why the fuck are you bothering me with this? Handling cash is a hassle in many ways: 1. It's slow. Obviously it is not slow in the best case when the customer throws in the exact change, but it is _really_ slow in the probably more typical case when the drunkard is at the counter and starts to dig into the pockets and find out if he has enough coins or when the seventh customer in the row wants to pay his ten cent…

1. Just don't accept any bill over €50 (this is common in shops too, no one expects to be paid for groceries or a beer at a festival in €100 bills). Most people are still pretty skilled in handling cash, although this is a declining skill. We've been doing cash transactions for centuries, we're still pretty good at it. The occasional slow-down is more than made up for by not having to charge or top-up your bracelet or what have you (you come prepared to the festival with cash).

2. A negligible amount for a vendor on a festival.

3. Not a problem on a festival. Booths tend to be manned by two persons because of other safety factors anyway, so staff stealing isn't an issue, and any organised criminality on a festival is usually limited to (relatively) low risk, high reward crime: pick-pocketing (smartphones in particular).

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#529

Post by gigatexal »

kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

The locked down nature of Swish and it’s monopoly status is worrisome. I was thinking there was just a ton of NFC readable payment devices that could accept any form of contactless payment like Apple Pay or Alipay or Google Pay etc... this is definitely not a good sign.

Regarding the article saying that if central banks become irrelevant due to cash going fully out of favor: that’s such BS. Deposits would just become credits from central banks to lending banks private or not so that customers could get credit and pay for goods digitally. No exchange of paper money is ever needed.

There’s already orders of magnitude more money in asset valuations than there is paper money to back them in the world economy why should we hold back because we are so fixated on paper currency. With the advent of token based contactless payment services like how Apple Pay works the future is secure payments without cash and those burndensome coins I have to handle while getting Che he after a purchase.

Lastly, if things go digital fully it could mean that securing and auditing and processing could be even cheaper and could allow for entrants that can still profit on transaction processing but at much lower rates than the current incumbents charge retailers.

It’s the opposite here in Germany. Some places have support for contactless payment, take credit cards, etc., but most even if they do prefer you to pay with cash as it’s cheaper for them. There’s also this German only banking alliance where they have put forth a EC card that has very low to no fees for participating entities as the funding and processing is all done in Germany amongst the member financial institutions. But my N26 account doesn’t offer one so I’m out of luck there.

The thing is the incumbents both state and private want to keep the status quo alive: the Mastercards of the world want to keep fees high and central banks want to keep control of interest rates by influencing the supply of currency in the market. I think both can still be done without cash and it leaves the possibility that with time and good legislation and technological improvement and some enterprising people there might become solutions that take the friction of paying for and make the settling accounts and such cheaper for all parties involved.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#530

Post by Freak_NL »

Symbiote wrote: post #450
sethhochberg wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You create a pin when you activate your card/wristband after walking in, yeah. At the Mirage, tips work just like a credit card transaction would - the bartender has an iPad sitting in front of them and you choose preset options or enter a custom one. Typically you place your order with the bartender, they'll ring it all up on the terminal, and by the time you've finished tapping your wristband on the reader and choo…

> No hassle with pens and receipts and handing cards around or any of that. Is there normally hassle? In Europe, and I think this generalisation holds in the countries that commonly pay with a card, the terminal is either mounted on the bar facing the customer, or is portable and left in a similar position. In any case, there's never a pen, receipts mostly go immediately in the bin unless someone is claiming expenses…

The pen thing for signatures is a US phenomenon. Where we have debit cards (contactless and without the need for a PIN even for small amounts in a growing number of countries), they are stuck with a very slow, reluctant transition to PIN-and-chip; something the rest of us did in the late nineties.

The upside is that the US is at this point better at holding on to the principle of being able to use cash everywhere in addition to other payment options; something that is starting to become a problem in Europe.

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