Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#271

Post by kenneth » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 10:40 PM UTC

joosters wrote: post #266

eigenvector wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have a very similar experience in China. So many things are now paid for by mobile wallets such as WeChat Pay that do not support foreign accounts. It's great for locals and for the government that - in an authoritarian country - gets unfettered access to all that personalized spending data. For tourists, not so much.

WeChat payments work fine with foreign cards...

Not really. It's very finicky at best. Activating a WeChat wallet requires a Chinese ID or a bank card, and the latter works very unreliably with any foreign cards.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#272

Post by flurdy » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 10:46 PM UTC

djdjdndhx wrote: post #79

pishpash wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you lose your wallet how do you pay for food with no wallet? This is a false line of argument.

I have $200 in a variety of denominations in my glove box. I have $2 000 cash at home. Once I’m home I can write myself a cheque, and with my passport, easily withdrawal more money at any bank (or grocery store). Also, if a natural disaster happens (earthquake, fire, flood, hurricane, Norsemen with iPhones disembark on our shores) I don’t have to rely on any network to buy something. I just pay cash, or write a chequ…

I don't. Perhaps mostly as I live in a different country.

I do have a £5 or 20 note as an emergency money in my bag and £20-40 in some drawers at home. E.g. to buy lunch if I come across a food stall that doesn't accept card payments. Rarer and rarer is it needed in the UK, and when I lived in Norway it was months between each time I needed cash.

I do however have spare debit/credit cards at home and my bag as well in case I lose my wallet. (I have never actually lost a wallet, but have left it in my coat/trousers at home etc)

With more and more stores (especially in Scandinavia as the OP details) no longer accept cash, and have not accepted cheques for decades, I am not sure your solution is a long-term solution.

[1] https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2016/08/03/paying-cash-...

[2] https://business.financialpost.com/news/economy/no-cash-sign...

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#273

Post by addicted » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 10:47 PM UTC

wild_preference wrote: post #226

tedivm wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the cashless festivals return your unused "credits" pretty quickly after the festival. The real problem comes when the system breaks down- which I've seen happen at plenty of festivals. At that point if cash isn't an option then commerce simply stops- screwing both vendor and customer alike.

Festivals I've been to will, say, require deposits of 100 peso increments and then the beers cost 80 pesos. And you can't get your money out. Even if you could get your money back, you're still waiting at lines to recharge the bracelet. It's a joke. With cash, you just come prepared and withdraw at any ATM long before the festival. Bracelets didn't solve any problem except disconnect the money handling event from the…

Why can’t you load the same amount of money on your bracelet before the festival as the cash you would be carrying?

If that’s because the festival organizers don’t let you retrieve your money easily or without a cost, that’s an issue with the festival management and not with the idea of digital money.

I’ve been to a festival which allowed us to withdraw money freely (I think they had some restrictions such as only 1 free withdrawal after the festival was over, and/or it had to be done within a week or so) but that allowed us to simply load in excess money so we never had to recharge. That worked really well for us.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#274

Post by angry_octet » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 10:49 PM UTC

nvarsj wrote: post #221

samontar wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s anti-fraud to stop someone from stealing your card and using it elsewhere. You can usually pre-empt that by informing the bank of travel.

Anti-fraud is done for the bank's benefit, with little incentive to prevent false positives. In my own experience, 100% of my blocked transactions have been false over the last few years (since I moved out of the US, where fraud is more rampant). It's extremely annoying - it's my money, but I can't use it because the bank is being overly conservative.

100% of fraudulent transactions have gone through silently on my card. Despite the fact that many times my bank has sent me an SMS querying whether something was kosher. Doubly perplexing because they were OS hotel and airline charges, I had a stream of local transactions (fuel, supermarket), I very rarely pay hotels directly, and the bank makes it easy to tell them you are going OS.

After much drama they refunded me. The hotel didn't seem to even care -- presumably they were not getting a huge charge back. IDK if it was a 'card not present' or what. They couldn't even tell me the name of the person using my card -- privacy rules.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#275

Post by iiv » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 10:49 PM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

What are your thoughts on [Vipps](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipps)?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#276

Post by jancsika » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 10:50 PM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

In other words, it became the civic responsibility of all the Swedes at the festival to ensure that foreigners-- who had no access to goods/services-- were properly fed, hydrated, and housed.

Actually, this sounds like it could become a utopia given the right social strategy by the Swedes. They just need to buy beers, lunches, and festival tickets for the kinds of tourists they desire. Then ignore the loud obnoxious ones who will become hungry and irritated and end up leaving early and never coming back to Sweden.

Of course the risk is that it is even more cost effective in the short term for the citizenry to become xenophobic.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#277

Post by oxide » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 10:53 PM UTC

tokai wrote: post #179

_cs2017_ wrote: post #70

Do dope dealers and brothels accept Apple Pay, or do people somehow get US dollar cash for those expenses?

I have heard about pushers using mobile payment services. Some even advertise their business on facebook.

I've never heard of a street level dealer in the US take anything but cash to my knowledge.

If you do, you're a good dealer and probably an outlier. Also, the further you go up the chain of command the less likely you'd be to run into someone accepting these types of payments as well.

I.e. the middleman might let you Zelle him the money, but he is probably paying with physical currency on your behalf to the actual dealer. The dealer might do the same, but the supplier is being paid with physical currency. The dealer supplier allows it, but his suppliers are accepting cash only. Etc.

Meanwhile you can use BTC to have those same drugs shipped to your door, through an onion based marketplace or whatever, or even the clearnet if you arent buying specifically controlled substances.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#278

Post by Nition » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 10:53 PM UTC

dmitriy_ko wrote: post #219

kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

That reminds me of Futurama episode where Bender finds a phone booth: "Now I don't need to carry my phone with me all the time!" Progress is sometimes a regress in disguise.

Plus a wired landline phone is always charged, with excellent reception.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#279

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 10:56 PM UTC

kristofferR wrote: post #97

I'm a Norwegian who went to a Swedish music festival last summer. I couldn't pay for a lot of things there, since the booths only accepted Swish (the only relevant Swedish mobile payment solution, it's a de facto monopoly). I couldn't sign up and use Swish on my phone, since it only accepts Swedish bank accounts. I couldn't borrow money from my Swedish friends either, since they didn't have cash (and it mostly wasn't…

[deleted]

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#280

Post by simen » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 10:57 PM UTC

nvarsj wrote: post #221

samontar wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s anti-fraud to stop someone from stealing your card and using it elsewhere. You can usually pre-empt that by informing the bank of travel.

Anti-fraud is done for the bank's benefit, with little incentive to prevent false positives. In my own experience, 100% of my blocked transactions have been false over the last few years (since I moved out of the US, where fraud is more rampant). It's extremely annoying - it's my money, but I can't use it because the bank is being overly conservative.

Maybe switch banks? My experience is I've had my account blocked exactly once - and that turned out to be actual identity theft. In the end, I didn't permanently lose any money thanks to the system working as intended. On one other occasion, I received a phone call from my bank inquiring about an unusual charge. I confirmed that this time it was a legitimate transaction I made and neither the account nor transaction were blocked.