Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#71

Post by michaelmrose » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:09 PM UTC

pishpash wrote: post #64

api wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Self sufficiency is a continuum, not a boolean. Cash decentralizes permission for economic transactions.

I'm genuinely curious, what would be the rationale or incentive for a private payment processor (in a competitive payments market) to reject a legitimate transaction? The only reason I can think of would be false positive on fraud detection or system error or the such, all problems with the medium, not with centralization/permissions.

Ever dealt with an unaccountable bureaucrat?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#72

Post by james_s_tayler » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:10 PM UTC

KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #27

CPLX wrote: post #14

A society without cash is a society in which every person has no choice but to get the permission of someone they don’t know and will never meet each and every time they seek to obtain food, water, shelter, or transportation, and that permission can be revoked instantly, silently, and invisibly at any time.

That's how services work though, you can't really be self sufficient unless you're a hunter gatherer. And even then you still need to be strong enough to kill the other tribes who are contesting with you for land. Imagine going to Mars and the very air you breathe is owned by your government. For me that's not an argument against going to mars, that's an argument for working harder to build a stronger, more trustwort…

That's not an argument against going to Mars for you?

Regimes that absolutist and authoritarian usually aren't the nicest of places to live.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#73

Post by xc101 » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

mamon wrote: post #2

More appropriate name would be "dystopia" because banning cash will have mostly adverse effects, intruducing nearly-totalitarian control over the citizens being the most important one.

These discussions are always closely observed by the fintech startup people.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#74

Post by james_s_tayler » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:18 PM UTC

scbrg wrote: post #68

pishpash wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you lose your wallet how do you pay for food with no wallet? This is a false line of argument.

With the spare cash I have at home. I don't have a spare phone at home, with a spare SIM card.

So... the logical conclusion is you would instead have a spare phone at home.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#75

Post by pishpash » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:19 PM UTC

intertextuality wrote: post #67

pishpash wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is even with cash in your wallet it is already a society where you have to obtain permission from unknown people to "obtain food, water, shelter, or transportation" because all of these things are delivered to you after many rounds of market exchanges which require clearing houses, escrows, the Fed, SWIFT, etc. Society has been essentially cashless for ages.

Then a cashless society requires permission from multiple entities- the government, the financial providers, and the entity you want to transact with. Not at all like cash, which just requires the entity to accept it as legal tender.

Unless the entity you're transacting with is also interested in operating in a completely cash-based economy, they will need to deposit your cash with a private bank and enter into the electronic money market. They will then worry about the source of your money by profiling you in case the risk accrues to them. Stores already do this if you pay for something with a large amount of cash and stand out as a target. That's my point that society is already essentially cashless. You're only talking about the margins of exchanges on the last hop that may be conducted in cash. Within one hop of conventional transactions it's almost certainly electronic. So I'm not sure that's a real distinction.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#76

Post by jlokier » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:21 PM UTC

pishpash wrote: post #57

kstenerud wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if your phone dies or is lost or stolen, how do you pay for food with no phone? How do you even buy a replacement phone if you have no phone to pay with?

If you lose your wallet how do you pay for food with no wallet? This is a false line of argument.

I'd estimate dead battery and network signal problems occur two orders of magnitude more often than people losing their wallet.

Even for rarer problems like phone software freezing up, touch sensor going awry, phone memory full but can't clean it (a bug but still), and losing network access because someone didn't pay the phone bill or it's pay-as-you-go and can't afford the top-up quantum - I think I've seen all of those more often than I've seen people lose all their cash.

And then there's the cost of replacement. If you urgently have to get a new phone to replace a broken, lost or stolen one, to pay for necessities - many people don't have enough short-term funds to cover it, nor access to credit.

Some of these can be addressed, but we've a long way to go.

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#77

Post by thaumasiotes » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:22 PM UTC

jamesblonde wrote: post #17

As a resident of Sweden, i can only say that this is the future for all western countries. Life is just better without cash. We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center. Your phone is enough to get you through the day. The govt is still run by the people for the people here, so most people aren't worried about totalitarianism. Most beggars now have signs wit…

> We don't pay the mental tax of always ensuring i have dollar bills on me to tip left, right, and center.

Is this something you were doing before?

If not, why did you bring it up? Who do you imagine is doing this?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#78

Post by pessimizer » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:24 PM UTC

pishpash wrote: post #64

api wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Self sufficiency is a continuum, not a boolean. Cash decentralizes permission for economic transactions.

I'm genuinely curious, what would be the rationale or incentive for a private payment processor (in a competitive payments market) to reject a legitimate transaction? The only reason I can think of would be false positive on fraud detection or system error or the such, all problems with the medium, not with centralization/permissions.

How about to please a regulator who is also an indirect competitor, or to avoid bad tweets?

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#79

Post by djdjdndhx » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:26 PM UTC

pishpash wrote: post #57

kstenerud wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if your phone dies or is lost or stolen, how do you pay for food with no phone? How do you even buy a replacement phone if you have no phone to pay with?

If you lose your wallet how do you pay for food with no wallet? This is a false line of argument.

I have $200 in a variety of denominations in my glove box.

I have $2 000 cash at home.

Once I’m home I can write myself a cheque, and with my passport, easily withdrawal more money at any bank (or grocery store).

Also, if a natural disaster happens (earthquake, fire, flood, hurricane, Norsemen with iPhones disembark on our shores) I don’t have to rely on any network to buy something. I just pay cash, or write a cheque.

Cash is very robust. (Booze, cigarettes and gold more so, but that’s another story)

Re: Sweden's cashless society is no longer a utopia

#80

Post by djdjdndhx » Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

jlokier wrote: post #76

pishpash wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you lose your wallet how do you pay for food with no wallet? This is a false line of argument.

I'd estimate dead battery and network signal problems occur two orders of magnitude more often than people losing their wallet. Even for rarer problems like phone software freezing up, touch sensor going awry, phone memory full but can't clean it (a bug but still), and losing network access because someone didn't pay the phone bill or it's pay-as-you-go and can't afford the top-up quantum - I think I've seen all of t…

Plus, I’m privileged, but I’m really not more than mildly annoyed if I loose my wallet with $50-$100.

The way I see it some person will have the opportunity to do the right thing and turn it in, or I like to imagine that a homeless will have a great a day.

The only thing that bothers me is my information in my wallet, which I will pay far more than $100 to keep safe.