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A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

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Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#31

Post by dschuetz »

eesmith wrote: post #30
dschuetz wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they just can't blame me then for not understanding what's going on in their heads. What a feeling that must be, keeping it a secret that they were of opposite gender once. It's mind-boggling to me, really.

They can blame you for not making an effort to read the many articles about trans people and their views. You may not know any Nobel Prize winners, but there sure are a lot of books about them you could read, which would give an idea of what's going on their heads.

I prefer talking, thanks.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#32

Post by gus_massa »

threatofrain wrote: post #24
cimmanom wrote: post #12

It sounds like he didn’t mean it seriously, but I’m willing to discuss the concept seriously. Some of us think gender shouldn’t necessarily be tied to the body one was born in or currently inhabits (that is, gender != sex). Is there a concept of age that is separate from the number of years the body has physically been in existence? Don’t we sometimes say of an adult “he has the emotional development of a 5 year old”…

The dutch man talks about age discrimination on Tinder; I imagine that only in recent times has record keeping gotten so omnipresent, and that people have always had more margin to play with their age +/- a few years. And yet we cannot lie about it much for long. As if there's a hidden clock somewhere, related to rotating around the sun but barely not. Perhaps those in the future will develop a biological clock, but…

In Argentina everyone has a national ID, that in particular is used to vote. Until ~1950 only the men had it, and they got it during the conscription.

In ~1950 the government gave all the women also an ID to vote, and the age was self reported because the official records were a mess (most of the records were only the baptism date keep by the church).

Many of the old women subtracted 5 or 10 years from their real age :).

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#33

Post by eesmith »

dschuetz wrote: post #29
eesmith wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't feel that the best way to figure out what a trans person feels like is to find one and ask them. Why do you think they want to educate a stranger? Instead, read one of the many, many articles on this topic. Written by trans people or trans-friendly people who specifically do want to educate strangers. Here's a "Q&A as a trans advocate’s nuanced perspective on Trans 101 questions." - http://www.transadvoc…

Talking is the best way, believe me. Writing things up is easy. But talking is sooo much more revealing and effective, that I started to prefer talking over reading hours and hours of the same explanation. Being a trans person is much more of an individual thing, so to avoid generalization I'd like to ask a trans person, in person, what they feel like. I don't want to be educated , I'd like to know and to understand…

The trans people of the world are not your personal tutors!

If you don't even care enough to read the basics, why should they think that you care enough to really understand them?

And there are writings from untold thousands of trans people, with different views, so it's not like reading will only give you generalizations. You'll get thousands of specifics.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#34

Post by coldtea »

deadbunny wrote: post #4
coldtea wrote: post #2

Well, death is not that fluid though...

Pretty sure death happens to people of all ages.

Statistically more to people around his age and greater.

Worldwide average life expectancy at birth is ~70 years.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#35

Post by dschuetz »

eesmith wrote: post #33
dschuetz wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talking is the best way, believe me. Writing things up is easy. But talking is sooo much more revealing and effective, that I started to prefer talking over reading hours and hours of the same explanation. Being a trans person is much more of an individual thing, so to avoid generalization I'd like to ask a trans person, in person, what they feel like. I don't want to be educated , I'd like to know and to understand…

The trans people of the world are not your personal tutors! If you don't even care enough to read the basics, why should they think that you care enough to really understand them? And there are writings from untold thousands of trans people, with different views, so it's not like reading will only give you generalizations. You'll get thousands of specifics.

Whatever happened to talking about personal issues. You really don't get it, do you?

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#36

Post by rectang »

dschuetz wrote: post #25
AndrewDucker wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that gender feels very different to different people. Some people feel strongly connected to one gender, some to another, some don't feel strongly connected to one at all. Trans people feel strongly connected to a different gender than the one which they are physically. All sorts of interesting research has been done: https://www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-tra...

What do you mean "connected"? They can still live and feel like a man or woman, without their respective physical features, right? Just be a man, with female features (or vice versa) and surround yourself with people who support and don't judge you upon the facts. Why can't they accept their bodies? I, personally, I can perfectly accept other people with their respective identities, I don't really care what the peopl…

I'm not trans, but I am acquainted with many trans people including an awesome past colleague. So take this for what it's worth from another person doing their best to understand gender dysphoria.

Imagine that you were to wake up and find yourself in the body of the opposite gender, yet with your sense of attraction and your personal identity unchanged. Wouldn't many of your mannerisms seem awkward to you and to others? Would others be willing to accept your assertion of a gender that was at odds with your appearance? Would you?

> But, as soon they let cut themselves up and are heavily medicated, I begin to sense that they have trouble accepting themselves as who they are.

It doesn't get talked about much, but many of the treatments are painful, inconvenient, have difficult side effects, and do not always yield results which satisfy the subject. That people are willing to go through them nevertheless says a lot.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#37

Post by rectang »

dschuetz wrote: post #35
eesmith wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trans people of the world are not your personal tutors! If you don't even care enough to read the basics, why should they think that you care enough to really understand them? And there are writings from untold thousands of trans people, with different views, so it's not like reading will only give you generalizations. You'll get thousands of specifics.

Whatever happened to talking about personal issues. You really don't get it, do you?

Kudos for making the effort to understand. At the same time, I think we can empathize that part of the minority experience is forever having to explain, and not being able to simply exist.

From the Miles Davis album A Tribute to Jack Johnson:

> "I'm Jack Johnson, heavyweight champion of the world. I'm black. They never let me forget it. I'm black all right. I'll never let them forget it."

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#38

Post by dschuetz »

rectang wrote: post #36
dschuetz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "connected"? They can still live and feel like a man or woman, without their respective physical features, right? Just be a man, with female features (or vice versa) and surround yourself with people who support and don't judge you upon the facts. Why can't they accept their bodies? I, personally, I can perfectly accept other people with their respective identities, I don't really care what the peopl…

I'm not trans, but I am acquainted with many trans people including an awesome past colleague. So take this for what it's worth from another person doing their best to understand gender dysphoria. Imagine that you were to wake up and find yourself in the body of the opposite gender, yet with your sense of attraction and your personal identity unchanged. Wouldn't many of your mannerisms seem awkward to you and to othe…

An interesting question. Why would it seem awkward though? I have mannerism that always did seem different to others which didn't bother me much, even when I was being bullied for that. Why am I different, just because I refuse to modify my mannerism, or modify others to accept that? Lacking the guts, or the strenght to stand up to bullies is not easy. But it should prevent any further damage to one's personality or identity. Self-acceptance is crucial.

I've always understood such drastic moves as acts of desperation. My point is that I want to understand what causes such desparation. I suspect that what you call gender dysphoria isn't the prime cause. But I can't know for sure without talking and learning about personal/individual experiences of trans people.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#39

Post by xemoka »

dschuetz wrote: post #31
eesmith wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can blame you for not making an effort to read the many articles about trans people and their views. You may not know any Nobel Prize winners, but there sure are a lot of books about them you could read, which would give an idea of what's going on their heads.

I prefer talking, thanks.

They don't need you to understand them, they need you to accept them. You don't get everything you want just because you ask.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#40

Post by dragonwriter »

dschuetz wrote: post #16

He's obviously trolling, but he does have a point. If gender is fluid why is it so important for trans people to look like women, or men? Is it a necessity? Then why adopt distinct male or female features, genitalia which do not work as intended? So, is it just cosmetic? Then why are they modifying their bodies? Just to feel well and free? Same goes for this guy. He's feeling like he's much younger than he actually i…

> If gender is fluid why is it so important for trans people to look like women, or men?

Fluid gender (identity; ascribed gender is externally imposed and to the extent it is or is not fluid, that's on society not the person to whom gender is ascribed) is an aspect of some people's gender identity, it is not something people (at least, many people) believe is inherent with all gender identity. Many trans people have as fixed an identity as the most cisnormative people believe all gender is, it's just not a cisgender identity.

> Is it a necessity?

For some, not for others.

> Then why adopt distinct male or female features, genitalia which do not work as intended?

There's a number of reasons (including the way society ascribes gender and mitigating the clash between ascribed gender and gender identity), which vary from individual to individual. But, also, that description of genitalia is the opposite of reality—for people that choose to change their genitalia, it is specifically because the new ones work more as intended by them than the old ones, not that they “do not work as intended”.

> Sadly, I don't know any trans person to ask them how they feel and why they feel that way, in person.

Happily, there's lots of information publicly available from trans people addressing those issues in every kind of media so that you don't need to rely on pestering people face to face to explain their gender identity and feelings surrounding it to you, which lots of people don't like to do.

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