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A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

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Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#21

Post by dschuetz »

rectang wrote: post #19
dschuetz wrote: post #16

He's obviously trolling, but he does have a point. If gender is fluid why is it so important for trans people to look like women, or men? Is it a necessity? Then why adopt distinct male or female features, genitalia which do not work as intended? So, is it just cosmetic? Then why are they modifying their bodies? Just to feel well and free? Same goes for this guy. He's feeling like he's much younger than he actually i…

> Sadly, I don't know any trans person to ask them how they feel and why they feel that way, in person. The statistics are high enough that you definitely know someone who is trans. They just can't tell you.

Well, they just can't blame me then for not understanding what's going on in their heads. What a feeling that must be, keeping it a secret that they were of opposite gender once. It's mind-boggling to me, really.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#22

Post by aequitas »

This guy is well known in the Netherlands. He became popular as positive energy guru with his catchphrase Tjsakka, somewhere at the end of the previous millennium. And is known as a entertainer and media attention seeker by almost all Dutchmen. Nobody here would be surprised by this and think it is one of his new jokes.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#23

Post by Arnt »

cimmanom wrote: post #12

It sounds like he didn’t mean it seriously, but I’m willing to discuss the concept seriously. Some of us think gender shouldn’t necessarily be tied to the body one was born in or currently inhabits (that is, gender != sex). Is there a concept of age that is separate from the number of years the body has physically been in existence? Don’t we sometimes say of an adult “he has the emotional development of a 5 year old”…

Strictly speaking, we have that already — I forget the English term but a court can declare you to be childlike and appoint a guardian to take care of adult affairs for you.

But that's not what you meant, right? You meant: what benefits would we get from having more complex "age" machinery in every database? Well, the complexity can be an advantage in itself. Much employment for highly paid database specialists, and many (small?) opportunities for blackhat mischief by leveraging people's assumptions that one "age" is the other "age".

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#24

Post by threatofrain »

cimmanom wrote: post #12

It sounds like he didn’t mean it seriously, but I’m willing to discuss the concept seriously. Some of us think gender shouldn’t necessarily be tied to the body one was born in or currently inhabits (that is, gender != sex). Is there a concept of age that is separate from the number of years the body has physically been in existence? Don’t we sometimes say of an adult “he has the emotional development of a 5 year old”…

The dutch man talks about age discrimination on Tinder; I imagine that only in recent times has record keeping gotten so omnipresent, and that people have always had more margin to play with their age +/- a few years.

And yet we cannot lie about it much for long. As if there's a hidden clock somewhere, related to rotating around the sun but barely not. Perhaps those in the future will develop a biological clock, but then we go back to the old question of whether this dutch man is wanted less because of age. Is age just the number on his government ID card?

Why can one fudge age, but only a little?

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#25

Post by dschuetz »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #20
dschuetz wrote: post #16

He's obviously trolling, but he does have a point. If gender is fluid why is it so important for trans people to look like women, or men? Is it a necessity? Then why adopt distinct male or female features, genitalia which do not work as intended? So, is it just cosmetic? Then why are they modifying their bodies? Just to feel well and free? Same goes for this guy. He's feeling like he's much younger than he actually i…

I suspect that gender feels very different to different people. Some people feel strongly connected to one gender, some to another, some don't feel strongly connected to one at all. Trans people feel strongly connected to a different gender than the one which they are physically. All sorts of interesting research has been done: https://www.the-scientist.com/features/are-the-brains-of-tra...

What do you mean "connected"? They can still live and feel like a man or woman, without their respective physical features, right? Just be a man, with female features (or vice versa) and surround yourself with people who support and don't judge you upon the facts. Why can't they accept their bodies? I, personally, I can perfectly accept other people with their respective identities, I don't really care what the people think they are. But, as soon they let cut themselves up and are heavily medicated, I begin to sense that they have trouble accepting themselves as who they are. I've had trouble accepting my own sexuality and features of my body, so I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#26

Post by mcphage »

> “He is just himself,” he said. “Trump is the first one who is honest. He shows his emotion on Twitter, saying to everyone, ‘Shut up.’ He’s a new kind of person.”

Someone who tells everyone else to shut up is nowhere near a new kind of person.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#27

Post by rectang »

dschuetz wrote: post #21
rectang wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly, I don't know any trans person to ask them how they feel and why they feel that way, in person. The statistics are high enough that you definitely know someone who is trans. They just can't tell you.

Well, they just can't blame me then for not understanding what's going on in their heads. What a feeling that must be, keeping it a secret that they were of opposite gender once. It's mind-boggling to me, really.

There can be severe consequences for those who reveal their transgender identity, from discrimination to death.

The situation is directly analogous to that of closeted gays. The more trans people who come out, the easier it will be for individuals and for society at large to accept them. But many of those in the vanguard will pay a terrible price.

> It's mind-boggling to me, really.

I felt similarly about concept of homosexuality as a teenager back in the late 1980s. When I found out that a musical hero of mine (Bob Mould) was gay, I thought hard about the issue. What was it like to be gay? Could I be gay? What does it feel like to be attracted to someone of the same sex? It was a worthwhile exercise, regardless of the conclusion.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#28

Post by eesmith »

dschuetz wrote: post #16

He's obviously trolling, but he does have a point. If gender is fluid why is it so important for trans people to look like women, or men? Is it a necessity? Then why adopt distinct male or female features, genitalia which do not work as intended? So, is it just cosmetic? Then why are they modifying their bodies? Just to feel well and free? Same goes for this guy. He's feeling like he's much younger than he actually i…

Please don't feel that the best way to figure out what a trans person feels like is to find one and ask them. Why do you think they want to educate a stranger?

Instead, read one of the many, many articles on this topic. Written by trans people or trans-friendly people who specifically do want to educate strangers.

Here's a "Q&A as a trans advocate’s nuanced perspective on Trans 101 questions." - http://www.transadvocate.com/a-trans-advocates-perspective-o...

Here's a recent blog post on trans advocacy which gives "definitions that are in common use among people that seriously study gender" - https://freethoughtblogs.com/pervertjustice/2018/10/13/andy-...

There are blogs, podcasts, YouTube channels, and more.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#29

Post by dschuetz »

eesmith wrote: post #28
dschuetz wrote: post #16

He's obviously trolling, but he does have a point. If gender is fluid why is it so important for trans people to look like women, or men? Is it a necessity? Then why adopt distinct male or female features, genitalia which do not work as intended? So, is it just cosmetic? Then why are they modifying their bodies? Just to feel well and free? Same goes for this guy. He's feeling like he's much younger than he actually i…

Please don't feel that the best way to figure out what a trans person feels like is to find one and ask them. Why do you think they want to educate a stranger? Instead, read one of the many, many articles on this topic. Written by trans people or trans-friendly people who specifically do want to educate strangers. Here's a "Q&A as a trans advocate’s nuanced perspective on Trans 101 questions." - http://www.transadvoc…

Talking is the best way, believe me. Writing things up is easy. But talking is sooo much more revealing and effective, that I started to prefer talking over reading hours and hours of the same explanation. Being a trans person is much more of an individual thing, so to avoid generalization I'd like to ask a trans person, in person, what they feel like. I don't want to be educated, I'd like to know and to understand.

Re: A 69-year-old man asks to be declared 49, claiming age is as fluid as gender

#30

Post by eesmith »

dschuetz wrote: post #21
rectang wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly, I don't know any trans person to ask them how they feel and why they feel that way, in person. The statistics are high enough that you definitely know someone who is trans. They just can't tell you.

Well, they just can't blame me then for not understanding what's going on in their heads. What a feeling that must be, keeping it a secret that they were of opposite gender once. It's mind-boggling to me, really.

They can blame you for not making an effort to read the many articles about trans people and their views.

You may not know any Nobel Prize winners, but there sure are a lot of books about them you could read, which would give an idea of what's going on their heads.

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