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“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

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Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough. But you need only look to history for examples to see the ultimate outcome of populism or democracy. It leads either to tyranny or total societal collapse. So I don’t agree with the notion that everyone should vote.

It's at least equally, if not more, accurate to say “you need only look to history for examples to see the ultimate outcome of limiting franchise, whether de jure or de facto , to a group that views themselves as the right kind of people to rule over everyone else. It leads either to tyranny or total societal collapse, and usually both in one order or the other.” So, I don't agree with the notion that only the “right…

Except the US was founded on the idea of a limited franchise.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

many people don't vote because they feel it doesn't make a difference This is actually the case in many areas. For example, casting a vote for a Republican Presidential candidate in California is a pointless endeavor. This sentiment doesn’t arise from lack of voter education, but rather from voter education - people understand the political makeup of the areas in which they live, and in those that are overwhelmingly…

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Kinda like millenials complaining about boomers voting for things they don't like, while simultaneously not turning out to vote even though as a group they outnumber the boomers and could actually effect change if they bothered to show up.

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Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#333
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a tiny precinct and thus lack perspective, but the wait time is pretty solvable by spending money.

Forcing people ot wait hours for voting is a tactic used to discourage voters and more effectively disenfranchise groups you don't want voting. White majority area has 15 minute lines, black majority has 2 hours.

Yeah, I get that.

But wealthy New York City, where Democrats run the election commission, was a notable shit show in the recent election.

Dealing with the unequal provision of resources is a big deal, I don't mean to dismiss it, it just isn't the only issue.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Total deaths of the Vietnam War, on all sides, were around 1.5 million. Korea was around 1.2 million. WWII was 50-90 million and WWI was 40 million. Vietnam and Korea (two conflicts that my father actually fought in) were wars, for sure, but not major wars compared to the World Wars.

US had 418,500 WWII deaths, and Korea had 128,650. Both within the same order of magnitude of each other. Vietnam surprisingly had only 60,000 US deaths - it is more notable for the resistance at home it spawned. There's no reasonable way to conclude these were not "major" wars in the context of US history.

In the context of US history, the World Wars transformed the United States from a parochial, isolationist regional power into a powerful superpower.

The Korean War transformed the United States from a country that occupied half of Korea with the permission of a local, democratically elected government to a country that occupies half of Korea with the permission of a local, democratically elected government. Vietnam transformed the United States into a slightly less interventionist country for 20-30 years and reduced the scope of Johnson's social welfare reforms.

The World Wars also saw the wide-scale mobilization of the entire nation, including rationing, large-scale transformation of American industry to war production, coastal blackouts at night to protect shipping traffic, ubiquitous propaganda, and other measures. World War II was more disruptive to the life of the typical American at home than any other war that didn't physically take place on American soil. (In fact, parts of World War II did take place on American soil.) Korea and Vietnam--"major" wars maybe in isolation, but not at all compared to WWII.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US had 418,500 WWII deaths, and Korea had 128,650. Both within the same order of magnitude of each other. Vietnam surprisingly had only 60,000 US deaths - it is more notable for the resistance at home it spawned. There's no reasonable way to conclude these were not "major" wars in the context of US history.

In the context of US history, the World Wars transformed the United States from a parochial, isolationist regional power into a powerful superpower. The Korean War transformed the United States from a country that occupied half of Korea with the permission of a local, democratically elected government to a country that occupies half of Korea with the permission of a local, democratically elected government. Vietnam t…

I never argued about the relative importance of the wars, just that your bar for "major" is extremely high.

You also forget about Korea as the start of the communist domino theory that directly led to the Vietnam intervention. And vastly understate the cultural changes that happened as a result of the Vietnam war protests.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would work too, but most customer serving businesses are open all weekend, so moving it to the weekend would mostly help people working 9-to-5 jobs, but not the young frequently moving people you are trying to target, who are also the ones working weekends and late nights. Whereas on federal holidays like Christmas, only gas stations and hospitals are open.

People working minimum wage jobs will still be working Election Day unless it’s very strictly enforced. Plenty of places are open on federal holidays; McDonald’s does not close on christmas.

Yeah, true enough..

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#337

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

> Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society.

I'm not usually one to say this, but this is a very high-and-mighty way of looking at your society. In Australia, voting is mandatory for every citizen. We have just as many misinformed people, but voting is seen as a civic duty in the same way that jury duty is. If you don't show up, you get fined (though skipping jury duty has a much higher fine).

I think the jury duty comparison is quite apt, actually -- in the case of voting (depending on your voting system), most individuals have very little individual power over which way an election will go. But as a member of a jury, you have a very large amount of power over how someone else's life will go. My point is that if you believe in mandatory jury duty (which I do) then you should also view mandatory voting as being no more insane than mandatory jury duty.

I agree with the rest of what you said, but I disagree that only well-informed people should be pushed to go and vote. It should be the duty of everyone to vote, because if you don't uniformly push even misinformed or disinterested people to vote then you are providing a gap for particular parties to push their supporters to out-vote you -- which is a ridiculous problem to have in my view.

> These are not the bottleneck.

As an outsider, it seems to me that the bottleneck in the US is laws being passed to explicitly make it more onerous to vote and other various organisational aspects (difficult to do early or postal voting, election day is on a Tuesday, bosses are allowed to fire employees for going to vote, really long lines at polling places, etc).

I'll never understand why so many politicians and citizens in the US view making voting more difficult as being anything other than a move away from a democratically elected representative government.

(As an aside, in Australia we don't have any form of voter ID. You just say your name and address and whether you've voted before and then you get a ballot.)

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#338
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...and it doesn't address one of the key issues with votes being cast in places other than a booth in a polling station where you are alone: Coercion. What's to stop a family member (OK, not much of an issue for overseas military personnel, one would think) or another person from hovering just outside the camera's capture area with a blunt object, ready to -ahem- influence your vote? Granted, this would only affect i…

> What's to stop a family member...[from] influenc[ing] your vote? This is also a problem with mail-in ballots. (It’s why I believe early votes should be allowed to be overwritten by in-person votes.) The issue with smartphone voting with selfie verification is almost everyone’s phones contain selfies. (Americans overseas are also likely to have a photo ID on their camera roll.) So controlling the phone means control…

Just to point out that "early voting" can take several forms, since I believe in the US many states combine (erroneously) mail-in voting with early voting.

In Australia, early voting can be done at polling places for several weeks before the election (though there's less polling places open obviously). Mail voting is also provided, but I agree with you that it really is something that has questionable merit -- when you're overseas you can vote at the Australian embassy. The only real use-case it serves is people who live in the outback or are worried about personal safety (who are "silent electors" -- where your address is not posted on the public voter roll), and I think that mail voting should only be provided to those people.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but it's important to note that many people don't vote in the US because they simply don't have the time to leave work/school and go to a polling place, or won't get paid for it if they do [1]. More mail-in ballots could potentially alleviate this, but a lot of people prefer to vote in person. Also due to our two-party system, gerrymandering, and the way congress works, many people don't vote because they fe…

I agree that changing the voting system would help a lot in shaking up the stratified two-party dynamic we have in the USA. STAR seems like an interesting method, but one potential issue with it is that it's more complicated than methods like approval voting (more bubbles on the ballot, harder to explain to people). Approval voting seems like the simplest fix to our existing voting system. It would encourage third pa…

Yeah complexity may have been a problem for it. About 70,000 people voted for it in Lane County, OR, with 78,000 against it.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alternatively, make each elected office require a man and a woman to be independently elected to that office. Have the decision making power split equally between the two 50-50 so that both must agree before taking action (e.g., signing or vetoing bills, or casting votes for bills). Each political party would provide both a male candidate and a female candidate for each office.

Why a man and a woman? How about a tall person and a short person, or a religious person and an atheist, or a white person and a black person (but what about other races?), and so forth? What is sacred about men versus women, especially since we're told that there's no actual difference between men and women?

Gender provides close to a 50-50 split, which is not provided by all demographics. But if you want to use height or any other demographic to analyze the proposal of two seats per political office, then please go ahead and analyze it that way instead of getting stuck on gender politics.
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