“A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming • Hacker News Board

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#311

Post by namibj » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:06 PM UTC

InitialLastName wrote: post #251

pwg wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reasoning for such extremely strict geographic restrictions, I am unsure of, but surely it would also argue against mail-in ballots (and I would assume smartphone voting). One reason is a holdover from the days when the eligible voter roles were physically printed on reams of paper to be lined through in pen as each eligible voter 'checked in' to be given a ballot. If your system for preventing double voting is…

> One reason is a holdover from the days when the eligible voter roles were physically printed on reams of paper to be lined through in pen as each eligible voter 'checked in' to be given a ballot. Way back when, meaning yesterday? My polling place had two different people with voter lists in front of them. One was a big book I had to sign under my name (once the lady finally paged, one page at a time, through to my…

(Germany) That would be like, last vote here. Thanks CCC for keeping the voting machines away.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#312

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:09 PM UTC

sbov wrote: post #240

tomjen3 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you deal with unregistered voters? How would you deal with malicious voters, who now surely would be so pissed they would vote for a bad candidate, or put in ballots wrapped in dog shit?

There's way more unpleasant things than voting the populace is forced to deal with and yet the government still manages to deal with their ire. Like filing tax returns. Or jury duty. You may as well ask them how they deal with dog shit filled envelopes.

Jury duty, which is so routinely avoided/worked around that it is a joke?

Tax returns, which are only done at the threat of prison? And mostly in the US because other countries have figured out a way to do it directly as long as you have a job?

I have voted in every election that I was elegible to, but this time I have lost every faith in the system and just want to some way to say to say enough is enough, you have lied to be too many times.

But no, you want me to continue the charade that democracy, without the possibility to hold the politicians responsible for their lies is worth anything at all.

I want them all to burn in hell. Where in your system do I vote in farvour of that?

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#313

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:10 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #229

tomjen3 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to read the bills, you just need somebody to check if there are any mines in them. You can find some who share your political views.

You could call those people your "representatives" and even defer your vote to them!

I don't want to defer my votes to them, I want to be able to, at all times, change my decision.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#314

Post by saltcured » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:11 PM UTC

twtw wrote: post #111

athenot wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving voting day from a Tuesday to a Sunday would also make a big difference. There are many people who have have informed opinions but can't afford to take off work (write-up for being late to work/take off early, lost income, transport issues). Also that would avoid removing a school day since most public schools are used for polling. Another option would be to switch to make mail-in ballots only.

I'm not sure - CA has permanent vote by mail available to all eligible voters, and saw about a 38% voter turnout yesterday. Texas does not, and saw about a 40% voter turnout. If getting to the polling place is the bottleneck, I would expect CAs vote by mail option would increase voter turnout relative to somewhere without it. (Cue someone saying I can't compare TX to CA - it seems like if I can't that demonstrates th…

I don't know much about TX, but in CA I think some voter apathy comes from the consistent results over many consecutive elections. I think you would need to look at local turnout to see how it varies when there are hotly contested decisions, i.e. districts where a seat might flip from one party to the other.

In yesterday's election, we had two Democrat candidates vying for a US Senate seat, rather than a bipartisan contest. The candidates from other parties were already squeezed out during our new open-primary election process.

Practically speaking, we don't have direct, proportional representation in most decisions. As a result, people sometimes fall into a trap where they think their personal vote will not really matter. It feels lost in the margin. The same discrete result happens whether they vote or not. This is equally true whether their views align with or against the expected outcome.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#315

Post by nine_k » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:29 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #305

nine_k wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apparently, voting rights and military duty are intrinsically linked since ancient times. Greek and Roman citizens had the right to vote linked to their duty of military service at times of war. E.g. Athens had lots of free non-citizens who did not have that privilege and that duty. (Also look up the etymology of the word "idiot".) Democratic institutions in Europe started to crop up (sometimes as a result of revolut…

Your line of thinking is exemplary of what I was talking about: “violence first, democracy later”, “democracy comes from fighting”, and soon enough thousands of people are sent to die for nothing in a Middle-Eastern desert.

> thousands of people are sent to die for nothing in a Middle-Eastern desert

This is sad. I don't like wars. A war is only worth it when all other means fail. I only see the point in defensive wars; the 1991 war in the Middle-Eastern desert was that, protecting Kuwait. Later, not so much, to say the least.

> violence first, democracy later

Rather, "independence first, democracy based on that". I don't see how this Middle-Eastern warfare ever helped US independence, or e.g. Iraqi independence. Except maybe it helped a bit Afghani independence, because Taliban long-term would likely be even worse that the total disarray they're having now.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#316

Post by jackvalentine » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:39 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #106

CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

Do you have any data at all that backs your theory that the major barrier to voting is lack of issue/candidate information? Because at first read, I'm not sure how ranting about "ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes" is different than "I don't want those people voting." I vote in one of the most complicated areas in the country: San Francisco. I had to make 40 different choices for a variety of different loc…

> Because at first read, I'm not sure how ranting about "ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes" is different than "I don't want those people voting."

It's not, and therefore the only 'fair' way of conducting elections is to make sure everyone has the opportunity to vote - even the people who will vote for the candidate you don't like.

A high turnout also has the advantage of inserting noise in to the result, negating the unfair advantages of highly motivated time-rich people (usually older people).

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#317

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 10:39 PM UTC

tomjen3 wrote: post #312

sbov wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's way more unpleasant things than voting the populace is forced to deal with and yet the government still manages to deal with their ire. Like filing tax returns. Or jury duty. You may as well ask them how they deal with dog shit filled envelopes.

Jury duty, which is so routinely avoided/worked around that it is a joke? Tax returns, which are only done at the threat of prison? And mostly in the US because other countries have figured out a way to do it directly as long as you have a job? I have voted in every election that I was elegible to, but this time I have lost every faith in the system and just want to some way to say to say enough is enough, you have l…

[deleted]

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#318

Post by Trill-I-Am » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:22 PM UTC

IncRnd wrote: post #212

mdorazio wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but it's important to note that many people don't vote in the US because they simply don't have the time to leave work/school and go to a polling place, or won't get paid for it if they do [1]. More mail-in ballots could potentially alleviate this, but a lot of people prefer to vote in person. Also due to our two-party system, gerrymandering, and the way congress works, many people don't vote because they fe…

> they simply don't have the time to leave work/school and go to a polling place, or won't get paid for it if they do [1]. More mail-in ballots could potentially alleviate this, but a lot of people prefer to vote in person. That's already solved. People can vote early in-person or mail-in ballots.

Many places have limited early voting and do not offer no-excuse mail voting.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#319

Post by philwelch » Wed, Nov 07, 2018, 11:47 PM UTC

slededit wrote: post #303

philwelch wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The First World War was the second most recent major war in American history, and I think the statute of limitations has passed on making V-J Day a national holiday. Veterans Day/Armistice Day is also one of the few secular national holidays that we share with most Western countries.

Strange you don't consider Vietnam a major war. I won't blame you for forgetting Korea though as even contemporaries did so. For me the definition of "major war" is were civilians forcibly conscripted.

Total deaths of the Vietnam War, on all sides, were around 1.5 million. Korea was around 1.2 million.

WWII was 50-90 million and WWI was 40 million. Vietnam and Korea (two conflicts that my father actually fought in) were wars, for sure, but not major wars compared to the World Wars.

Re: “A Horrifically Bad Idea”: Smartphone Voting Is Coming

#320

Post by rapind » Thu, Nov 08, 2018, 12:00 AM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #3

If we think that not enough people are voting, the way to solve this is NOT through get-out-the-vote efforts, voter registration drives, and tools like this to make it easier to cast a vote. These are not the bottleneck. Voting may be a duty, but it's one that carries a lot of responsibility. Getting ignorant people to cast poorly-informed votes does not help our society. And I think that people realize this. So when…

Voting needs to be localized, easy (convenient), and mandatory (fines). Vote for people who vote for people, etc.

The level of abstraction, indirection, and complexity at a national (and state) level demoralizes and creates antipathy.

You can't blame populism when no one can be informed enough to make an informed decision.

Imagine being asked to make an architectural decision on a 5,000,000 LOC project your first day on the job... then add a bunch of stakeholders telling you that their way is better (and often lying about it, or at least exaggerating the outcomes).