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Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

reuters.com

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Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#181

Post by grigjd3 »

EvanAnderson wrote: post #180
grigjd3 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're aware that they now allow gay members and leaders and that the atheism thing is on it's way out, right? I'm an atheist eagle scout. I'll grant you that it has been tough to get these changes in, but they are clearly happening.

The organization's recent reaffirmation of the "Duty of God" doesn't make me think the "atheism thing" is at all on the "way out": https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2018/05/31/bsa-reaffirms-d... Where I am, in semi-rural Ohio, I think an openly atheist person would have a very tough time being accepted.

Well, as an eagle scout who has influence in this (they actually listen to their eagle scouts), I know many of us have been pushing for a wider view of what is meant for spirituality to include atheists, just like we pushed to allow in gay scout leaders and scouts, and we pushed to open the program to women.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#182

Post by nailer »

laumars wrote: post #172
nailer wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm factoring in parental and cohort influence: these kids play with each other, and are not in school yet.

You’re still just focused on specific examples of influence. What about TV (kids shows, adverts, etc) or stories? What about what kids see when out and about (eg these kids will notice other people in shops). And I very much doubt the only children they ever play with are those who’s parents are lesbians. What about other forms of day care, soft play centres etc. Or other friends who aren’t lesbians? Or other family?…

> However I’m not in anyway implying that a child’s behaviour is 100% down to nurture. Clearly there is going to be a biological element as well.

I think we're basically agreed here: yes, other influences exist, but there's a huge biological element. Even if you remove TV, other family, etc it wouldn't surprise me if there's similar results.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#183

Post by CydeWeys »

grigjd3 wrote: post #181
EvanAnderson wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The organization's recent reaffirmation of the "Duty of God" doesn't make me think the "atheism thing" is at all on the "way out": https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2018/05/31/bsa-reaffirms-d... Where I am, in semi-rural Ohio, I think an openly atheist person would have a very tough time being accepted.

Well, as an eagle scout who has influence in this (they actually listen to their eagle scouts), I know many of us have been pushing for a wider view of what is meant for spirituality to include atheists, just like we pushed to allow in gay scout leaders and scouts, and we pushed to open the program to women.

They need to take out the "spirituality" aspect of it, full stop. Atheists by and large aren't "spiritual" for any meaningful definition of the word, and pretending that they are won't actually make atheists feel more welcome.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#184

Post by CydeWeys »

brobdingnagians wrote: post #154
richmarr wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is important to distinguish between "freedom to act as you see fit" and "discrimation" per see By all means try to distinguish between them. You haven't yet done so.

"freedom to act as you see fit" is usually a human right guaranteed legally by the Constitution, but discrimination is a cultural idea which is slowly gaining the power of legal force to prevent people from doing what they would normally choose. To be "discriminating" used to be a compliment, it meant you could intellectualy discern the logical differences between two things, much like how we use "observative". But n…

> But now it means something more like "making choices someone personally disagrees with or thinks is unfair to a certain preferred group".

Your definition of discrimination in the second sense (which is actually listed first in the dictionary) is off. Let's consult that:

"The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex."

It goes a lot further than merely making disagreeable choices or being unfair.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#185

Post by OskarS »

Lio wrote: post #135
OskarS wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Swedish and grew up as a scout, and in Sweden scouting was made co-educational in the 1960s. I remember having my mind blown at finding out that this wasn't the case everywhere in the modern world. It just seemed like the most ridiculous thing to me, to separate scouting by gender. Saying that girls and boys couldn't be scouts together was equally absurd to me as saying that girls and boys couldn't go to school t…

Are Girl Guides a thing in Sweden? If Guides exist are they co-education also?

I don't think so. I mean, maybe, but not that I've heard of.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#186

Post by CydeWeys »

ams6110 wrote: post #156
endymi0n wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So which faith should I be loyal to please if I have none? And which universal „spiritual principles“ exist in the world that I could adhere to, except for „whatever my religious leader says“ (of which I don‘t have any)? There‘s simply no logic in these sentences, which points back again to the boy scouts being a de facto religious organization.

I was in Scouts for a couple of years. Religion was not really a focus at all. The message was that we should respect each others choices with regard to religion and spirituality and that was about it. Morals, good citizenship, and respect were otherwise discussed without much reference to religion.

It depends on the troop. I was in the Cub Scouts in Takoma Park, MD (which is where the hippies went who never stopped being hippies), and indeed religion was not a focus there. But in troops elsewhere, it definitely can be. And those troops are being given cover and explicit endorsement to do so by the national organization. Whereas if, say, a local dance class started injecting religion and making some people feel uncomfortable because it's not their religion, the national organization might step in and shut that all down, saying stick to dance instruction and leave religion in church.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#187

Post by CydeWeys »

taneq wrote: post #127
laumars wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are we all becoming so politically correct that we effectively stop teaching our children the values of masculinity and femininity? In my experience masculinity and femininity are a concept we largely teach kids. I've seen so many boys who love musicals, dolls, dressing up, crafting and all the other activities often associated as "girls things". Yet the moment they're spotted doing it by a group of their peers, th…

I've seen this same thing in action, and I've wondered whether it might be part of the reason that people end up identifying as transgender. If you've had it drummed into you that dolls and dresses and make-up are "girl things" and you like all of those, then well you must be a girl, right? And if you like tools and cars and sports then you must be a boy? If you can't even imagine it's an option to like those things…

I think you're reversing cause and effect in the case of transgender kids.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#188

Post by ericb »

Casseres wrote: post #48
ericb wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current plan is that they separate dens by gender.

That's for Cub Scouts. For Scouts BSA, the current plan is to have boy-only troops and girl-only troops. They can share the same troop number, committee, budget, etc, but only the Scoutmaster has to be different. I foresee that changing or troops taking initiative and organizing differently unofficially, but that's the current plan.

I didn't realize--I only have cub scouts.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#189

Post by fusiongyro »

VLM wrote: post #145
fusiongyro wrote: post #79

I feel like I always hear about girl scout fundraising (not just the cookies) but never about girl scouting. In contrast, I hear a lot about camping and whatnot with the boy scouts, yet they never seem to be in my face raising money. What's all that girl scout money going towards? More fundraising?

Parent of both, some anecdotes and generalities follow. Girl scouting is indoors and out of sight, Boy scouting is outdoors and in view. Therefore you will see a lot more "boy activity". They spend a similar amount of time. For whatever weird traditional reason its assumed the boys families will pay maybe a hundred per year for boy scouting stuff, and girls do not pay or only pay a symbolic tiny amount of money. WRT…

Thanks for answering. I really appreciate that you took the time to explain this.

Re: Girl Scouts file trademark lawsuit as Boy Scouts plan to rename to Scouts BSA

#190

Post by taeric »

em-bee wrote: post #73
taeric wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a counterpoint, I've actually been kind of annoyed with the local boy scouts for getting somewhat active trying to recruit my girls to their scouts. I get that they likely mean well, but my kids are already quite happy in the girl scouts. No need to try and confuse things by trying to "turn a new leaf." I confess I assumed you were both the same organization years ago. Found out you weren't, and largely didn't car…

ugh, yeah, active members for one group should be off limits for recruitment by the other. the goal should be to get more kids into scouting, not to poach each others membership. i hope this kind of behavior is not common. greetings, eMBee

Being fair, I don't think most of it is intentional. Just if they see us out, they ask if they know the boy scouts allow girls to join.

If they just ask if they know the "scouts" allow girls, it just confuses them. Of course there girl scouts allow girls to join.

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